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 4a-fe To 4a-ge 20v Requirements - Legal and Mechanical advice needed.  

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Kory
  • Kory
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Post #1 post 12th September 2010 - 08:56 PM
My 4A-FE is dead with a spun bearing, and I will be looking at a 4A-GE some time in the next few days.

My car is an AE92 CSi Hatch.

The front-cut is a 4A-GE 20v Blacktop with a 5 speed. My questions are:

1. Do I need a mod plate, or is the engine considered a "Replacement" rather than a "Conversion. AE92s came out with 4A-GEs but never with the blacktop version. How picky are the rules?

My girlfriend is still on her P's, and I'd like her to still be able to drive the car if need be.

2. Does this engine+box drop straight in to my car, including drive-shafts etc. I do not have enough money or time to mess around getting shafts made. I aim to have it in in about 1-2 days.

Finally, NO, I'm not getting a GZE for a couple of reasons. They are more expensive, they definitely require a mod plate, it will make my insurance go up, and it would not be drivable by my girlfriend. Had this happened at a time when I had a could grand to spare, and a few years down the track when she is off her P's, I would have gone for a GZE.

Any advice about the swap is welcome.

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mark1414
Post #2

Yeah you need a mod plate. Its a pretty basic swap from what I have heard.

TwinCam16
Post #3

the 20v is a real grey area...

You can do a 4age into your car without a mod plate as the SX / GTI was an option in your year.

Where it becomes iffy is the definition of conversion. The bottom end is the same, the only difference is the head, you could argue that you have done a head conversion and be done with it.

I know many people who have done it and never had an issue, but that doesn't mean it's going to work all the time.

At the end of the day it's a 4age. your car was avail with a 4age.
blv
Post #4

Agree with twincam, this is a grey area. the part you may come unstuck is the fact your build plate will have 4A-FE on it, whereas your engine is coded 4A-GE. The difference again is only the head, but does the engine number have any referance to the GE or FE? Im not 100% sure. If it doesnt, you will just need to fill out a form at the transprt department for the change of engine number, and you will need it sighted (in QLD anyway), then you can claim you have changed the head if pulled over.

As for CV Joints, If the Inner joint is exactly the same spline and length, then you will be able to use your existing CV joints. I cant seem to find any info in our catalog here at work in regards to the 20v. Do you know what model it cam out of (ie AE101, AE111 GTi etc)?

Pattax
Post #5

I actually dont think you will need a modplate in this instance. Not sure about the diff/brakes though, would they suffice? Also not sure if the gearbox/engine mounts are universal fit. Should probs look into this.

Getting the old engine out and the new engine in, probably wont take 1-2 days, especially by yourself and dependant on your experience.

Pattax
Post #6

Also ;

www.rollaclub.com

robbo5121
Post #7

im currently converting my ae82 4ac-e carby to a 4age 16v EFI setup. i can tell u the box from a 4ace will fit a 4age as i just bolted mine up. but the exausght , fuel tank, fuel lines, harnesses, ecu, plugs, engine bay, etc all has to be swapped. its a farkin bitch but worth it.

robbo5121
Post #8

oh and i have to have mine finished by wednesday, which means i will have had it done in a week

mark1414
Post #9

QUOTE (blv @ Sep 13 2010, 03:58 PM) *
Agree with twincam, this is a grey area. the part you may come unstuck is the fact your build plate will have 4A-FE on it, whereas your engine is coded 4A-GE. The difference again is only the head, but does the engine number have any referance to the GE or FE? Im not 100% sure. If it doesnt, you will just need to fill out a form at the transprt department for the change of engine number, and you will need it sighted (in QLD anyway), then you can claim you have changed the head if pulled over.

As for CV Joints, If the Inner joint is exactly the same spline and length, then you will be able to use your existing CV joints. I cant seem to find any info in our catalog here at work in regards to the 20v. Do you know what model it cam out of (ie AE101, AE111 GTi etc)?


Twin Cam corollas came with a 4age 16v. No one ever said you cant convert a 4a-fe corolla to 4age 16v without a mod plate, its just when you go to 20v technically you would need one.

blv
Post #10

QUOTE (mark1414 @ Sep 13 2010, 04:10 PM) *
Twin Cam corollas came with a 4age 16v. No one ever said you cant convert a 4a-fe corolla to 4age 16v without a mod plate, its just when you go to 20v technically you would need one.


But a twin cam corolla with a 4A-GE in it will have 4A-GE on the build plate. So if you had a 4A-GE build plated car, you certainly wont need a mod plate to put a 4A-GE 20v in it. You only 'might' need a mod plate going from the 4A-FE to any variant of the 4A-GE. Im still not 100% certain that you do because i think you can put a 4A-GE 16v or 20v head on a 4A-FE bottom end.

mark1414
Post #11

QUOTE (blv @ Sep 13 2010, 04:30 PM) *
But a twin cam corolla with a 4A-GE in it will have 4A-GE on the build plate. So if you had a 4A-GE build plated car, you certainly wont need a mod plate to put a 4A-GE 20v in it. You only 'might' need a mod plate going from the 4A-FE to any variant of the 4A-GE. Im still not 100% certain that you do because i think you can put a 4A-GE 16v or 20v head on a 4A-FE bottom end.


That is not correct. You can change the motor of a car and not have a mod plate if that motor was an option in the car aslong as you use the corresponding brakes, diff etc. He can convert his car to 4age 16v without a mod plate as that was an option on that model. Where is gets confusing is if you class the 20v as a different motor to the 16v...

My brother owns a ae82 which was originally a 4age 16v and now has a 4age 20v in it. It has a mod plate for the engine conversion. The last owner did the conversion and got the mod plate, knowing him he wouldn't have got it if it wasn't required. What TwinCam is saying is you could get away with it maybe and I can see why. But considering the conversion has little fabrication and is quite simple you would be best off just getting the plate so it is all 'legal' as if you do end up in an accident small technicalities like this can see your insurance void. Is it worth the risk?

Kory
Post #12

4age 20v bt is from an ae111

Its a frontcut so ill have everything as far as I can tell

Mongrel
Post #13

at the risk at starting another of these retarded P restriction arguments......
technically it requires a mod plate either way,
Option1: you claim it was a engine offered as a option in that model(4A-FE -> 4A-GE), But the head has been changed, and it effects the performance of the engine so it would be a engine modification under the LA4 engine code (not P plate legal)

Option2: you claim it is a equivalent engine substitution which require approval under a LA1 code (not P plate legal)
blacky83
Post #14

You'd need a mod plate, the engine is rated at a higher power than the 16v 4AGE that came in the AE92. The swap shouldn't need many upgrades to be legal, but it'd probably rule out your girlfriend driving it.

Your current gearbox (C52) will bolt up to the 20v without any issue. If you want to use the box from the halfcut, I think there might be a bit more work.

TwinCam16
Post #15

QUOTE (blacky83 @ Sep 13 2010, 06:38 PM) *
You'd need a mod plate, the engine is rated at a higher power than the 16v 4AGE that came in the AE92. The swap shouldn't need many upgrades to be legal, but it'd probably rule out your girlfriend driving it.

Your current gearbox (C52) will bolt up to the 20v without any issue. If you want to use the box from the halfcut, I think there might be a bit more work.


What was the rules again on the increase % in QLD before plates are required?

Mongrel
Post #16

QUOTE (blacky83 @ Sep 13 2010, 06:38 PM) *
You'd need a mod plate, the engine is rated at a higher power than the 16v 4AGE that came in the AE92. The swap shouldn't need many upgrades to be legal, but it'd probably rule out your girlfriend driving it.

Your current gearbox (C52) will bolt up to the 20v without any issue. If you want to use the box from the halfcut, I think there might be a bit more work.

current gearbox might be a C50 actually(the nasty one that get's the gear crunches going when you shift quick) it will bolt up to the 20v, but good luck shifting gears at above 6000rpm.
early silver tops will have c52(same as c50 but without the shift problems, same box behind the aussie gti and sx) and later silver tops have a C56(different ratio's)

blacky83
Post #17

QUOTE (TwinCam16 @ Sep 13 2010, 06:10 PM) *
What was the rules again on the increase % in QLD before plates are required?

I'm not heaps cluey on QLD rules being interstate. However from what I've heard the 20v motors were overrated by Toyota, so according to the DOT you're having more of an increase than you really are. AE92 smallports were 100kw, the blacktop was rated at 121kw, so that's more than 20% increase in (rated) power. I don't like your chances of getting that through.

Sell the frontcut, and buy an AE92 smallport. You'll save some cash, have no hassles with mod plates, and everything is a complete swap.
trev084
Post #18

QUOTE (Mongrel @ Sep 13 2010, 06:46 PM) *
current gearbox might be a C50 actually(the nasty one that get's the gear crunches going when you shift quick) it will bolt up to the 20v, but good luck shifting gears at above 6000rpm.
early silver tops will have c52(same as c50 but without the shift problems, same box behind the aussie gti and sx) and later silver tops have a C56(different ratio's)


C52 was also found behind the AE82 twincam, the C50 & C52 has the same problems.
Mongrel
Post #19

QUOTE (trev084 @ Sep 13 2010, 06:51 PM) *
C52 was also found behind the AE82 twincam, the C50 & C52 has the same problems.

can have the same problem, but the they had attempted to fix it in the c52, it's a lot better.
the c52 wins hands down.
trev084
Post #20

QUOTE (Mongrel @ Sep 13 2010, 06:57 PM) *
can have the same problem, but the they had attempted to fix it in the c52, it's a lot better.
the c52 wins hands down.


Find me a twincam box with a good 2nd gear syncro.

boot_it
Post #21

QUOTE (Kory @ Sep 13 2010, 03:56 PM) *
My 4A-FE is dead with a spun bearing, and I will be looking at a 4A-GE some time in the next few days.

My car is an AE92 CSi Hatch.

The front-cut is a 4A-GE 20v Blacktop with a 5 speed. My questions are:

1. Do I need a mod plate, or is the engine considered a "Replacement" rather than a "Conversion. AE92s came out with 4A-GEs but never with the blacktop version. How picky are the rules?

My girlfriend is still on her P's, and I'd like her to still be able to drive the car if need be.

2. Does this engine+box drop straight in to my car, including drive-shafts etc. I do not have enough money or time to mess around getting shafts made. I aim to have it in in about 1-2 days.

Finally, NO, I'm not getting a GZE for a couple of reasons. They are more expensive, they definitely require a mod plate, it will make my insurance go up, and it would not be drivable by my girlfriend. Had this happened at a time when I had a could grand to spare, and a few years down the track when she is off her P's, I would have gone for a GZE.

Any advice about the swap is welcome.


ok if the ae92 DID NOT come out with the 4a-ge 20v from factory than it is deemed a conversion and will require a mod plate

to anyone doin a conversion or engine swap i say this unless you are putting back the same engine in your car i strongly advise getting a mod plate with the paper work from the engineer (laminated) and kept in the car at all times just to cover your ass from qld police etc

Pattax
Post #22

QUOTE (TwinCam16 @ Sep 13 2010, 06:40 PM) *
What was the rules again on the increase % in QLD before plates are required?

20%

Kory
Post #23

QUOTE (blacky83 @ Sep 13 2010, 06:38 PM) *
You'd need a mod plate, the engine is rated at a higher power than the 16v 4AGE that came in the AE92. The swap shouldn't need many upgrades to be legal, but it'd probably rule out your girlfriend driving it.


Fair enough. She almost never drives my car, but I'd rather her get caught driving a NA car than a quite obviously charged car, as the chances your average officer would know anything about 4As is a hell of a lot lower than the chances they know what an inter-cooler is...

QUOTE (blacky83 @ Sep 13 2010, 06:38 PM) *
Your current gearbox (C52) will bolt up to the 20v without any issue. If you want to use the box from the halfcut, I think there might be a bit more work.


I'm aiming to use the new box, can anyone give me a straight answer as to weather or not AE111 shafts fit AE92 hubs, or will I need to switch the hubs? I know AE82-AE111 struts are all basically the same, so thats not a problem, not sure on the LCAs tho..

Why did the topic get moved? This is as much about legalities as it is about mechanical issues. I hope its still open to non technical members.

anyway, guess I better hit google..

robbo5121
Post #24

ahh kory, goodluck with the conversion mate, my night was spent working then up till 2 fitting new fuel lines, efi tank and pump, twin cam 4age exausht system , powersteering and harnesses, also got the box off the motor and time for a waterpump and gasket kit tomorrow, ... if u need any help give us a bell

pipster11
Post #25

cant you just pull the plate off that says 20v twin cam?

also, you could probably call qt and ask them if they will allow it, say that your mechanic found a new motor and your not sure if it will be allowed.... its more fuel efficient cos its slightly newer.... less emissions....

if the worst comes to the worst they will confirm what everyone has said here



and if your gonna do it on the dodgy, don't whack a massive cannon on it, get some big mufflers under it so its quiet but still free flowing

Kory
Post #26

QUOTE (pipster11 @ Sep 14 2010, 08:36 AM) *
cant you just pull the plate off that says 20v twin cam?

also, you could probably call qt and ask them if they will allow it, say that your mechanic found a new motor and your not sure if it will be allowed.... its more fuel efficient cos its slightly newer.... less emissions....

if the worst comes to the worst they will confirm what everyone has said here



and if your gonna do it on the dodgy, don't whack a massive cannon on it, get some big mufflers under it so its quiet but still free flowing


Yeah I was thinking of de-marking it, because then there would be almost no chance a cop would know anything had been changed.

No cannons, the end result will be no louder than current at the exhaust end anyway. Wanting a semi sleaper.


Theres an article on 4age.net that is fairly helpful, tho the whole loom issue seems pretty daunting. I wouldnt have thought you would need to detatch any wires to the ecu etc if you pulled it thru the firewall. Can ecus be in the engine bay?

Mongrel
Post #27

QUOTE (Kory @ Sep 14 2010, 12:46 PM) *
Yeah I was thinking of de-marking it, because then there would be almost no chance a cop would know anything had been changed.

No cannons, the end result will be no louder than current at the exhaust end anyway. Wanting a semi sleaper.


Theres an article on 4age.net that is fairly helpful, tho the whole loom issue seems pretty daunting. I wouldnt have thought you would need to detatch any wires to the ecu etc if you pulled it thru the firewall. Can ecus be in the engine bay?

Don't listen to anything QT tell you over the phone, they usually have no idea and are in no way accountable if you get pulled up for it. Wiring is easy, there is only a handfull of wires to spice in, and yours is already efi. Ecu's can be mounted in the engine bay(most new cars do this) but they have to be designed for it. Worst thing for electrical circuits is heat cycling, vibration and moisture. Something it will see plenty of being mounted in the bay. Your better off mounting it where the old Ecu was

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