LoginP Plate Restrictions - Done to death I know but hoping for a decent conversation.
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27th December 2010 - 04:47 PM
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Mr.B
Post #177
QUOTE (Espress @ Dec 28 2010, 10:08 AM)  I don't get what you guys are referring to as experience? are you referring to the fact that if you have a close call you will see the error in your ways and slow down? or the commonsense to keep safe distances to people? the ability to catch a skid? what is it? because the way I see it, its not experience that makes the 30 something year old in our street that drifts his auto el falcon around the street in the wet, he does that coz hes a fuckwit. Edit: Ok im assuming you mean attitude changing if something bad happens, Yes this can happen for the better but its a shame the life-changing incident has to happen in the first place and will generally come down to somebody being a fuckwit on the road. I bet if I nearly had a head on or something I would take it a bit easier on the road so your right in this sense, but I also know people who do skids on the streets all the time, one of which has crashed his car on numerous occasions but refuses to learn. Experience is a lot of things when placed in the context of driving. You might take a corner too fast in the wet and feel the back end flick out, so now you know that you should take a corner more carefully. You observe other peoples driving habits, tail gating, and they have an accident, that's also experience. Experience is both positive and negative, its progressively teaches you in ways you don't actually know. Sure, common sense is also a key player. But common sense isn't exactly common either. The problem is you're attributing one experience (the 30 year old) and assuming that is going to be the case in a large group of cases, and what happens when you're driving is you (unknowingly) actually look for people who assume the profile you've created of the person in order to further your argument. There's a lot of sociology and psychology involved in that, which I won't go into here. Don't take that as an insult, its more to do with trying to understand your own thinking. |
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Espress
Post #178
QUOTE (TwinCam16 @ Dec 28 2010, 10:47 AM) Hahhahah Go Max, Go. It's easy to pick the maturity levels of someone by how they act / respond to certain things you say. It goes without saying that the stereotype fits with our good friend here. Ok, so at no point did you point out that this 30 year old shouldn't be skidding in the first place, the only way you can get better at skidding is to skid, so by saying that your implying that the 30 yr old is less likely to crash while skidding due to practicing this in the past. Take 2 people, your average law abiding 30 yr old who drives an omega ve and always obeys road rules, if they get into trouble, eg a slide how are they going to be able to recover the car any better than a fresh P plater? The only way to get better at something is to practice it. |
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TwinCam16
Post #179
I have never argued that. |
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Espress
Post #180
QUOTE (Mr.B @ Dec 28 2010, 10:52 AM) Experience is a lot of things when placed in the context of driving. You might take a corner too fast in the wet and feel the back end flick out, so now you know that you should take a corner more carefully. You observe other peoples driving habits, tail gating, and they have an accident, that's also experience. Experience is both positive and negative, its progressively teaches you in ways you don't actually know. Sure, common sense is also a key player. But common sense isn't exactly common either. The problem is you're attributing one experience (the 30 year old) and assuming that is going to be the case in a large group of cases, and what happens when you're driving is you (unknowingly) actually look for people who assume the profile you've created of the person in order to further your argument. There's a lot of sociology and psychology involved in that, which I won't go into here. Don't take that as an insult, its more to do with trying to understand your own thinking. Good post, Your also right with that second paragraph. This explains the general public perception of P platers doing stupid shit. That point is really good because I know that when I see; for instance, a tradie drift his hilux around a corner in the wet, the first thing that comes to my mind is how immature that guy is and how that these are the types of people that should have their freedoms taken away not P platers like myself who consider ourselves safe, aware (if less experienced) drivers. |
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Twat In The Hat
Post #182
If you really do consider yourself a safe driver, then so be it. If you don't speed, don't hoon, don't show off to your mates, and actually spend the time you are on your P's getting practice and learning how to drive, then you really are one of the better P platers around. However the restrictions should still stay, as you need to learn to be around other cars and drivers on a long term basis before they let you into a more powerful car. |
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Espress
Post #183
QUOTE (TwinCam16 @ Dec 28 2010, 11:13 AM) I have never argued that. In a VE Omega there should be no problem with either driver. Give both drivers a VE SS however, and I will sit in the passenger seat of someone who has been driving for 10+ years over someone who has for less than 3 ANYDAY. You are missing the whole MENTALITY combined with INEXPERIENCE argument here. Being young and dumb and not looking at the bigger picture is what makes you so ..... fucking retarded.... Most young people can see this and accept it, you on the other hand... Yes, I would prefer to be with the 10+ year driver too. Thats just common sense, they would be safer in the majority of situations. But your were arguing that a 30 year old would be less likely to crash if they initiated a drift than a P plater. I would argue that unless the 30 yr old has been drifting extensively in the past there would be little difference as to how the two recovered from a slide. |
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Espress
Post #184
QUOTE (Twat In The Hat @ Dec 28 2010, 11:17 AM) If you really do consider yourself a safe driver, then so be it. If you don't speed, don't hoon, don't show off to your mates, and actually spend the time you are on your P's getting practice and learning how to drive, then you really are one of the better P platers around. However the restrictions should still stay, as you need to learn to be around other cars and drivers on a long term basis before they let you into a more powerful car. If you try to disagree to that point with an immature response, then I put this here in advance..  Ok good point, so (to go in circles here) your saying we generally need to have a bit more experience on the road before we hop into a HIPO vehicle? Ok Fair enough. But these laws don't apply to a 25 year old, so according to these silly rules, a 26 year old bogan who just got off his L's can hop straight into a HSV GTS whereas a 24 year old who has been on his P's for 2 years is still not mature enough to drive a golf GTI. |
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TwinCam16
Post #186
QUOTE (Espress @ Dec 28 2010, 11:24 AM) Ok good point, so (to go in circles here) your saying we generally need to have a bit more experience on the road before we hop into a HIPO vehicle? Ok Fair enough. But these laws don't apply to a 25 year old, so according to these silly rules, a 26 year old bogan who just got off his L's can hop straight into a HSV GTS whereas a 24 year old who has been on his P's for 2 years is still not mature enough to drive a golf GTI. With age also comes maturity. When you are YOUR age you are out trying to prove a point / show your king shit. Like right now. |
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mako86
Post #187
QUOTE (Twat In The Hat @ Dec 28 2010, 10:45 AM) Jesus christ dude, open your fucking eyes. Queensland is known for it's hooning problem compared to other states. I live in Melbourne. I kid you fucking not, everytime I drive from here to Chadstone (less than a 5minute drive away) I spot maybe 1-2 annoying older people who are sitting at 90 in an 80 zone. Who merge across 3 lanes without indicating, who decide to speed up for a yellow light and quite often get flashed as it turned red faster than they hoped. I see at least ONE of those examples from older drivers, EVERY time I get in the car. This however does NOT compare to the fact that I can't go to Chadstone or to my ex's house (lives 30minutes away from me) without seeing, on average, about 1 P plater every 5 minutes of driving, decide to fang past me at a retarded speed. They chirp their wheels in their shitty Commodores. They think their fucking N/A Civic with a body kit and stock wheels is suddenly a supercar. The other day I had a dickhead in a new Suzuki Alto.. Yes an Alto.. 1litre 3cylinder.. pull up next to me at a traffic light and shout out "sick sticker bro" (referring to my boostcruising.com sticker) Seconds before the light went green I heard him rev to maybe 5-6k and try drop it. The car chirped, jumped stalled.. I'm really glad that the undercover car sitting 2 cars behind me spotted it. It made me laugh and he would have been done for being a hard @#$!. Of course though, his punishment from the cops will also come with him telling his mates how some hard @#$! of a cop should be out catching robbers and rapists but instead they are doing him for dangerous driving etc etc. It's all about the mentality. I see many nice cars, especially on Sunday arvo drives. I will cruise next to them and have a brief chat a traffic light. At this point I might point out I am on my P's (nothing to do with bad driving history, it's a long story) but I am 24. I love cars and of course I would love a car with some balls. That doesn't mean I go "sick car bro" and try to drop the clutch on my 1993, 2.6l carby Magna. This is where the mentality and attitude comes into it. By 24, I have learnt to not be a dickhead on the road. Grow the fuck up, stop baiting the senior members on this site. You are a retard, not because you have a difference of opinion to HSV, but because... Wait for it... my eyes are open. im emplying that it not only p platers and that is what im getting at. yous are so quick to blame p platers, my point again yes queensland has hooning problems. but the guys that go drifting in the industrial area near my place at night. they dont have p plates there doing dumb shit. the dick head in a vs ute that lost it doing skids at end of my street in parkwood and smashed up over a center island wasnt a p plater. or the guy that came drifting out of a side street and killed my old house mate as he was coming along on his road bike. but no they dont count in you peoples eyes cus its only p platers that break the law. wake up to yourself. now as for baiting im voicing my views. but wait thats right only senior members can do that my bad ill stop now. and HSV na didnt hurt my feelings one bit. just sick of guys like you that think only your views are right. i look i read what you say. try actually taking in what other people say and see where others are coming from. |
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Twat In The Hat
Post #189
QUOTE (Espress @ Dec 28 2010, 12:24 PM) Ok good point, so (to go in circles here) your saying we generally need to have a bit more experience on the road before we hop into a HIPO vehicle? Ok Fair enough. But these laws don't apply to a 25 year old, so according to these silly rules, a 26 year old bogan who just got off his L's can hop straight into a HSV GTS whereas a 24 year old who has been on his P's for 2 years is still not mature enough to drive a golf GTI. Yeah, the law isn't perfect. It needs a lot of refining. The not having power restrictions over 25 comes with the maturity. It's like any age related rule. Why can someone who is 17 and 6 months not get a tattoo? Are they really going to mature that much in 6 months? Same with smoking. Same with voting. The government doesn't have a way to individually monitor everyone so they set things by age which is fair enough really. It's not a perfect system, but it is generally the best one they can come up with. I will be 25 while still on my P's, I don't even know if the weight restriction will be lifted when that happens, or if we even have that in Victoria. I think however, regardless of age/maturity, P platers need to have restrictions. |
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Espress
Post #191
QUOTE (Twat In The Hat @ Dec 28 2010, 12:31 PM) Yeah, the law isn't perfect. It needs a lot of refining. The not having power restrictions over 25 comes with the maturity. It's like any age related rule. Why can someone who is 17 and 6 months not get a tattoo? Are they really going to mature that much in 6 months? Same with smoking. Same with voting. The government doesn't have a way to individually monitor everyone so they set things by age which is fair enough really. It's not a perfect system, but it is generally the best one they can come up with. I will be 25 while still on my P's, I don't even know if the weight restriction will be lifted when that happens, or if we even have that in Victoria. I think however, regardless of age/maturity, P platers need to have restrictions. Ya your right, I realize they have draw a line on the age at which the restrictions stop and I am surprised nobody pointed that out earlier in the thread. I was under the impression that the laws were implemented because inexperienced drivers can't handle the power, but a 25 year old L plater is still a very inexperienced driver. I guess its just the government trying to protect us from our own stupidity, some of us aren't mature enough to drive a HIPO car so they stop all P platers, but where does it stop? For instance we all know one or two 25+ year olds who are dickheads on the road so why not just ban every HIPO vehicle in Australia? These laws were a kneejerk reaction to a few fatal P plate crashes, not to mention the ludicrous holes they have in them, a new xr6 not a HIPO vehicle? |
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Espress
Post #193
QUOTE (TwinCam16 @ Dec 28 2010, 12:35 PM) I wish restrictions WERE in place when we were teenagers to be honest. I would still have two good mates with us today, rather than looking at a cross on ipswich road from them being an idiot in a VL turbo. Im sorry to hear that mate but if they choose to do dangerous stuff on the roads aren't they just as likely to do it in a non-turbo VL? It would have to be a pretty specific circumstance for them to die just due to power and power alone. Eg: ridiculous speeds, spinning out due to excessive power. |
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Twat In The Hat
Post #194
QUOTE (TwinCam16 @ Dec 28 2010, 12:44 PM) I tell you what. Fuck off all the restrictions. Every last one of them. Put EVERY p plater on a 250cc bike for 6 months and THEN let them see how much their skill means. Hahahaha! Making headlines tonight; The annual road toll has risen by over 600% in just 2 weeks. The roads have been compared to armageddon by some older locals. "There are like people flying everywhere, blood and guts all over the place" one witness told our reporter. This comes less than a fortnight after the government issuing mandatory 6month motorbike licences as part of a new scheme for young motorists to obtain their drivers licence. |
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TwinCam16
Post #195
QUOTE (Espress @ Dec 28 2010, 11:45 AM) Im sorry to hear that mate but if they choose to do dangerous stuff on the roads aren't they just as likely to do it in a non-turbo VL? It would have to be a pretty specific circumstance for them to die just due to power and power alone. Eg: ridiculous speeds, spinning out due to excessive power. He was being a total cock smoker. Racing on ipswich mwy, went back to third, came on boost, and stepped out at 100km/h. This isnt possible in a non turbo 6. |
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Twat In The Hat
Post #196
QUOTE (Espress @ Dec 28 2010, 12:45 PM) Im sorry to hear that mate but if they choose to do dangerous stuff on the roads aren't they just as likely to do it in a non-turbo VL? It would have to be a pretty specific circumstance for them to die just due to power and power alone. Eg: ridiculous speeds, That would be the most likely situation. That's what it always is. Either drink driving, or losing control because the car was too powerful. |
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TwinCam16
Post #197
QUOTE (Twat In The Hat @ Dec 28 2010, 11:48 AM) Hahahaha! Making headlines tonight; The annual road toll has risen by over 600% in just 2 weeks. The roads have been compared to armageddon by some older locals. "There are like people flying everywhere, blood and guts all over the place" one witness told our reporter. This comes less than a fortnight after the government issuing mandatory 6month motorbike licences as part of a new scheme for young motorists to obtain their drivers licence. I call it "Mass natural selection" |
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STFUKhubner
Post #199
God dam was i this stupid when i was on my Ps. |
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. laws are laws fucking sooks. i also drive a 40 yr old car as my daily and the breaks are better then the skyline (skyline is abs as well) handles 100x better then the skyline will ever. Also made out of metal was in a massive hail storm no dints all the "newer" cars were fucked. maintain your car the breaks will be mint handling will be mint. |
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Espress
Post #201
QUOTE (gutless @ Dec 28 2010, 12:41 PM) this is exactly why p platers are not allowed turbos Ill be a douche bag and say that this post and the one before it barely deserve to be dignified with a response. Twin cam's friends situation is a rare occurrence where the P plate restrictions would have saved their lives. Theres no arguing against the fact that they would still be alive if they were driving a non-turbo VL in that exact situation. But, just to make this argument drag on longer than it has to: What if they were a year or two older and had a full license, Would this really of made a difference? Like it sounds like this car has alot of power, would a tiny bit more experience really made the difference between them stomping on the throttle or simply feeding it in? It seems to me like a 20 year old who just got their blacks could easily make the same mistake, or even a 30 yr old who hasn't driven a car with that much power. I think this is more an issue of the driver not respecting the power (and yes inexperience, but as I mentioned the above 2 examples are inexperienced too). |
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Twat In The Hat
Post #202
QUOTE (Espress @ Dec 28 2010, 02:33 PM) Ill be a douche bag and say that this post and the one before it barely deserve to be dignified with a response. Twin cam's friends situation is a rare occurrence where the P plate restrictions would have saved their lives. Theres no arguing against the fact that they would still be alive if they were driving a non-turbo VL in that exact situation. But, just to make this argument drag on longer than it has to: What if they were a year or two older and had a full license, Would this really of made a difference? Like it sounds like this car has alot of power, would a tiny bit more experience really made the difference between them stomping on the throttle or simply feeding it in? It seems to me like a 20 year old who just got their blacks could easily make the same mistake, or even a 30 yr old who hasn't driven a car with that much power. I think this is more an issue of the driver not respecting the power (and yes inexperience, but as I mentioned the above 2 examples are inexperienced too). Could make the same mistake, yes, but it's less likely to happen. Would 2 years more experience make a difference? That's almost a definite yes. Think back to the first time you ever stepped foot in a car. The car would have jerked like a kangaroo when you touch the accelerator, and jerked everyone forward when you came to a stop. How long between L's and P's in queensland? 1 year? 2 years? You can't dispute the amount of experience you gain in that little amount of time alone. That extra 2 years would have made a big difference. Now as respect for the fact that someone who is part of this discussion is very close to the incident at hand, maybe we can move on from that particular example. |
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TwinCam16
Post #203
QUOTE (Twat In The Hat @ Dec 28 2010, 01:40 PM) Could make the same mistake, yes, but it's less likely to happen. Would 2 years more experience make a difference? That's almost a definite yes. Think back to the first time you ever stepped foot in a car. The car would have jerked like a kangaroo when you touch the accelerator, and jerked everyone forward when you came to a stop. How long between L's and P's in queensland? 1 year? 2 years? You can't dispute the amount of experience you gain in that little amount of time alone. That extra 2 years would have made a big difference. Now as respect for the fact that someone who is part of this discussion is very close to the incident at hand, maybe we can move on from that particular example. Spot on, it's all a numbers game. The chances are A LOT lower later on in life. At 18 years old, having a car with 320rwkw was just asking for trouble. It was RARE in those days for young people to have this kind of power as it cost a SHITLOAD of money. A FMIC was a sign that you were a serious cunt. Now its a given. The rise in affordability is what has put these weapons in the hands of MORE young drivers. Not all, granted but enough to cause a concern. Now if Michael had of not been in the VL, and decided to do the same action, it would have just sounded like your typical Ipswich vl car with a rasp that screams bogan. There would have been no "watch this fuckers face when it comes on gate" He still would have gone out done skids / done what ever, but it would have been at a LOT lower speed or in the wet, a situation where, sure you can still fuckup, chances are you might bend the car, but there is a good chance you will not and prolly go back and do it again and LEARN what to do when things get a little edgy, rather than the first time it comes on boost in an unfamiliar situation, freaking out and tank slapping the car into a ditch and rolling several times until you land on the service road, roof first. Now as Max said, if you have the personal maturity NOT to do this kinds of stuff, hats off to you. But the facts are you are in the MINORITY. |
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Espress
Post #204
QUOTE (Twat In The Hat @ Dec 28 2010, 02:40 PM) Could make the same mistake, yes, but it's less likely to happen. Would 2 years more experience make a difference? That's almost a definite yes. Think back to the first time you ever stepped foot in a car. The car would have jerked like a kangaroo when you touch the accelerator, and jerked everyone forward when you came to a stop. How long between L's and P's in queensland? 1 year? 2 years? You can't dispute the amount of experience you gain in that little amount of time alone. That extra 2 years would have made a big difference. Now as respect for the fact that someone who is part of this discussion is very close to the incident at hand, maybe we can move on from that particular example. Ya I was thinking the same thing but I will just rebut that surely there is a difference between the amount of experience gained in the first 12 months than in the last 1 year of my driving life. But anyway, thats a good point because they may have only just gotten their license and thus are still learning new things very quickly. |
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Espress
Post #205
QUOTE (TwinCam16 @ Dec 28 2010, 03:21 PM) Spot on, it's all a numbers game. The chances are A LOT lower later on in life. At 18 years old, having a car with 320rwkw was just asking for trouble. It was RARE in those days for young people to have this kind of power as it cost a SHITLOAD of money. A FMIC was a sign that you were a serious cunt. Now its a given. The rise in affordability is what has put these weapons in the hands of MORE young drivers. Not all, granted but enough to cause a concern. Now if Michael had of not been in the VL, and decided to do the same action, it would have just sounded like your typical Ipswich vl car with a rasp that screams bogan. There would have been no "watch this fuckers face when it comes on gate" He still would have gone out done skids / done what ever, but it would have been at a LOT lower speed or in the wet, a situation where, sure you can still fuckup, chances are you might bend the car, but there is a good chance you will not and prolly go back and do it again and LEARN what to do when things get a little edgy, rather than the first time it comes on boost in an unfamiliar situation, freaking out and tank slapping the car into a ditch and rolling several times until you land on the service road, roof first. Now as Max said, if you have the personal maturity NOT to do this kinds of stuff, hats off to you. But the facts are you are in the MINORITY. Well said. |
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gutless
Post #206
QUOTE (Espress @ Dec 28 2010, 02:33 PM) Ill be a douche bag and say that this post and the one before it barely deserve to be dignified with a response. Twin cam's friends situation is a rare occurrence where the P plate restrictions would have saved their lives. Theres no arguing against the fact that they would still be alive if they were driving a non-turbo VL in that exact situation. But, just to make this argument drag on longer than it has to: What if they were a year or two older and had a full license, Would this really of made a difference? Like it sounds like this car has alot of power, would a tiny bit more experience really made the difference between them stomping on the throttle or simply feeding it in? It seems to me like a 20 year old who just got their blacks could easily make the same mistake, or even a 30 yr old who hasn't driven a car with that much power. I think this is more an issue of the driver not respecting the power (and yes inexperience, but as I mentioned the above 2 examples are inexperienced too). mate you just dont get it p plate drivers should not be allowed to drive high powered cars end of story you obviously havent driven a turbo car and known about the dangers of coming on boost in certain situations yes if someone older was in that vl they may have died as well but it wouldnt be an example to use if the restrictions were in place and two people would still be alive all the government can do about older idiots is fine, disqualify and encarcerate them in efforts to change them you will be on your open licence real soon just give us all a yell when you crash due to stupidity,inexperience and ego cause it doesnt seem like youve learned much |
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Twat In The Hat
Post #208
QUOTE (Espress @ Dec 28 2010, 09:51 PM) It may be because I am really tired and reading your post from an iphone while taking a dump, but I am struggling to find the point you are trying to make. Hahahaha!  One of the best responses to a post I've ever read.
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Simpwn91
Post #210
QUOTE (gutless @ Dec 28 2010, 08:22 PM) mate you just dont get it p plate drivers should not be allowed to drive high powered cars end of story you obviously havent driven a turbo car and known about the dangers of coming on boost in certain situations yes if someone older was in that vl they may have died as well but it wouldnt be an example to use if the restrictions were in place and two people would still be alive all the government can do about older idiots is fine, disqualify and encarcerate them in efforts to change them you will be on your open licence real soon just give us all a yell when you crash due to stupidity,inexperience and ego cause it doesnt seem like youve learned much Any sensible, normal person would treat a new car (turbo'd or not) with care when first driving it. During this short period of getting used to an unfamiliar car, said person will learn when boost is going to come on and how to respond when it does happen (or how to avoid it happening). Yes i'm a p plater and no i don't have a lot of experience driving powerful cars. I have driven my fathers turbo diesel (Inb4 doesnt count as turbo). I was careful in it and slowly and gradually eased the throttle on exiting the first street. I was doing about 25-30kms p/h. Turbo kicked in (because its diesel and probably cause its a shitty auto) when i wasnt expecting it. Nothing happened, because i am a normal young driver and was treading carefully with a car i'd never driven before. I learnt from what happened and know how to drive that car now. Everyone is right, it is about experience...But if they government never lets us 'experience' anything, what has changed 4 years after we start learning? Another point here is: its unlikely that a petrol turbo (unless i stay in a low gear) is going to spool up mid corner because they generally need higher revs than diesels...So tell me why, if your point is that turbo is dangerous in odd situations, is it legal for me to drive the car that spools up mid corner as opposed to one that (unless thrashed) Doesnt? Perhaps they should introduce training for Learners on driving different types of cars so that they know what to expect when they try to overtake in a 1.4L Barina or what to expect when they floor a turbo diesel ute around a corner. |
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