P Plate Restrictions - Done to death I know but hoping for a decent conversation.  

obey

Not all of them.
Some have lots of lag and there are non turbo cars that can beat many turbo cars off the line.

mark1414

Great

obey

Double post.

obey

You have got to be kidding if you don't think there are P plate cars that can accelerate fast.

A pulsar et turbo is sooooo much faster than an ek4 civic right?

mark1414

I do beleive there are some P plate cars that can accelerate faster than a 1.5L single cam motor from the 80s yes. Thats not what I said, I said "High performance cars accelerate quickly, the laws restrict high performance cars." Just because a NA car beats a turbo car doesn't make it fast.

A ek4 civic with P plate legal mods is never going to be fast. A stock ET pulsar is also not fast.

obey

Actually with a few mods like cam shafts exhaust and ecu they will be keeping up with v8 commodores.
Many p platers do these mods to their civics.

It doesn't make sense how you can't drive an et turbo pulsar but you can drive an ek4 does it?

What do you want p platers to constantly have their engines checked on the dyno to make sure they are standard too?

You don't see the bigger picture that we are losing our freedom and this country is becoming like a dictatorship.

People will eventually realise the flaws in these laws and there will be even more freedom taken away from this country.

mark1414

AFAIK modified cams are not P plate legal (although you would be unlucky to be caught). I am unsure about the legalities of an ECU upgrade. So your example wasn't P plate legal...

Of course the laws have flaws, I never said they didn't?? I would guess QLD will follow the other states and make it power to weight ratio instead of a blanket ban. Look at the new 'LAMS' scheme for bikes, which took ages for them to implement, it used to be a blanked ban on anything over 250cc (similar to the P plate restrictions) and now it goes off power to weight, it just took them a while to change it.

Also Im not loosing any freedoms cause the laws don't effect me.

obey

Exactly but p platers do it anyway.
People eventually may start calling for monthly dyno tests for p platers or something lie that.


Loosing freedoms due to laws effects everyone it's not just cars it's everything.

I am also scare of what would happen if they brought out power to weaight laws.
P platers would lose alot of cool cars that they get to drive and it wouldnt account for things like gearbox ratios etc.

The P plate laws do not keep young people out of dangerous cars.
I don't trust the news because they're always lying but I remember reading once that commdores are the number one car involved in fatalaties with P platers.

Now what would happen if they banned commodores?

Small 4cylinder hatch backs don't suit everyones needs.
Some young people have familys at a young age.

mark1414

Asking for monthly dyno sheets would never happen, thats just stupid.

If commodores are the number one car involved in accidents with p platers its not because they are unsafe its because they are the most common car on the road and since they have been going for so long, since the 1980s or there abouts this puts many of the older models in your typical p platers budget for a first car.

So you complain about the blanket rule we have now and you complain about power to weight rules. Can I ask what you wouldn't complain about?

I can see why people argue with you now. Your point is just getting more and more wack. You still haven't proven how "The p plate laws don't restrict how fast cars can accelerate all that much really." All you have shown is that one modern P plate legal car can beat an old turbo car from the early 80s, which was never market as a performance car, its a pulsar....

obey

There is no evidnce to say that modified cars were ever involved in more accidents per capita were there?

I don't really care about the P plate rules in someways but it's just the fact that it doesn't keep p platers out of dangerous cars.

I don't really care too much about them but I don't think the road toll would change much if they allowed turbo cars to be driven by p platers.


I also don't think you have any idea how fast ek4 civics actually are.
What about cordias then?
They are meant to be a performance car.

What I have shown is not just simply that a modern car can beat an old turbo car but a major fault in the law.

Housey

I still don't see why its necessary to restrict performance cars for p platers, when the only arguement for the ban seems to be that they can break the road rules faster than a slow car can, IE: they ONLY become dangerous when other rules, already punishable by law are also being disregarded. Wouldn't this just mean that the current enforcement of road rules is insufficient? Therefore I propose a solution which I believe governments would be happy to introduce, greatly increased number of speeding camera and/or greatly increase the amount each speeding fine costs to discourage p platers from breaking already existing laws in their hipo cars. Problem solved

obey

That is very true but I don't think we should have anymore speed cameras.

Mr.B

The reason is because of the concentration of Commodores. They have been the highest selling car for the better part of the past decade. The more there are, the greater the concentration, the cheaper and more affordable they become. Parts availability is another things that contributes, this all boils down to one thing. Cheap automotive transport for the up and coming generation. Hence why the Commodore (and probably Falcons) are the cars most involved in crashes.

Conspiracy theories aside, there are two sides to the P plate restrictions (in my opinion).

First, the mechanical side. I agree that the restrictions alone are not enough to curb the alleged road fatalities, they need to be coupled with things like defensive driving courses. I also agree that there are some turbocharged cars with exemplary safety records that are subsequently banned because of the turbocharger. Turbochargers are being used by many manufacturers now to increase volumetric efficiency, meaning smaller capacity engines to get the same power and torque to get moving. Often, turbocharged vehicles do come with improved safety features, purely because it's the current safety standard. However, many older vehicles that have turbochargers and are under the current "power level" may not display the same safety features.

If anything, the NSW RTA system is quite comprehensive in terms of vehicles exempt from not being driven. Coupled with the modification system in place, it can in many instances be difficult to legally modify your vehicle under the laws in NSW. Whether QLD adopts the NSW system or to a better (?) extent, the NT system of yearly road worthy checks (and mind you NZ and EU have the same) and can the whole P plate system is up for debate as well.

Second, the psychological side. By using values and figures like 200 kW, V8, turbochargers and superchargers it gives the owner / driver an underlying feeling that they are driving a slow car. Whether or not this imparts on their skill to operate a vehicle is an entirely different matter. But for the moment, lets assume that because they're driving a slow car, they are more or less compliant on the road. If this was the case, the road toll (within P platers) would be reduced.

The reality is, is amongst men / boys (in particular) they have this idea that they need to prove themselves to others. The same does exist in the female population, but it's not nearly as prominent. This is another thing that has to be addressed successfully if they wish to curb the road toll amongst P platers. Try to stop the "Keeping up with the Jones's" mentality of younger drivers make them, to a degree, comfortable with what they drive. Some may interpret this as forcing the populous towards complacency, but this sort of system has been in place in most EU countries for the better part of the past 50 years. And if anything, their country has developed for the better. Yes, the statistical correlation between driving habits and development is highly dubious and questionable.

There is far more to the whole "P plate" laws and legislation than any of us are privy to. But be mindful that there probably was a good intention to stop people killing themselves, but it may have gotten a little carried away and not well planned.

My 2c...

YrocLeumas

You seem pretty reasonable in what you're trying to say, turbo cars are generally faster, I mean derrpp they have forced induction.
A generic p plater wouldnt be likely to choose some dirty old useless thing over something nicer so that really quite silly comparison obey made is kind of swing and miss.

A more reasonable one would be modern golfs/polos when they are forced induction and we cant drive them but they are like <140kw or so, eh.

With the commodores thing, regardless of whether they are the most common or not, they are a powerful, torquey six cylinder car with rear wheel drive, and are quite affordable.

Couple those things with inexperience and woohoo yeah man rip skiddies bro and you have trouble.

YrocLeumas

I think they yearly roadworthy check should be compulsory that seems pretty straightfoward.
I dont understand what you mean in this bit "Try to stop the "Keeping up with the Jones's" mentality of younger drivers make them, to a degree, comfortable with what they drive. Some may interpret this as forcing the populous towards complacency"

I think that that psycological comment is hitting the nail right on the head.

Your 2c has a good currency value I think.

obey

You're not seeing the big picture.

It'as not about what they are likely to drive or not it is simply a major flaw in the law.

There are a lot of fast NA cars.

Mr.B

"Keeping up with the Joneses" is an idiom in many parts of the English-speaking world referring to the comparison to one's neighbor as a benchmark for social caste or the accumulation of material goods. To fail to "keep up with the Joneses" is perceived as demonstrating socio-economic or cultural inferiority.

In other words, make them comfortable with the "slower" cars that they drive and preventing them / making them think about from trying to prove themselves to one another.

mako86

as i said before mark1414 knows all. lets not voice our views lets just listen to him.
now is there any solid stats to say that p platers cant drive performance cars have reduced p plater road tolls.
real stats too not the ones that anna blight blurted out when put on the spot.

ps im not a p plater either.

Mr.B

I'll give you a start.

http://abs.gov.au/ - Australian Bureau of Statistics
http://www.infrastructure.gov.au/roads/saf...009/rsr_04.aspx - Road Deaths Australia, 2008 Statistical Summary
http://www.tmr.qld.gov.au/Safety/Transport...statistics.aspx - Road safety statistics

Go for your life.

YrocLeumas

Yeah that sounds about right.

YrocLeumas

Ah yeah I was just thinking of the tv program.

Driving skill needs to be further separated into two categories: road driving and track driving.
Motorsports should be more encouraged but I guess some would see this as encouraging dangerous practice on the road.
I guess it comes down to who exactly cares about safety/legality and such.

mark1414

Your not even addressing the original statement anymore. I used to have some sympathy for you but now I just realised your happy to go off in your own little world. The questions that you are asking me have nothing to do with my original statement towards you.

Also thanks mack86, I can always use anotherr fan.

Twat In The Hat

Holy fucking shit. Reading this thread from start to finish gave me a headache. Obey.. you are just absolutely retarded. Just one thing I do want to comment on that you said, is that it's dangerous to look in your rear view mirror while driving. You as a driver are meant to know where everything is around you. You don't drive staring in your rear view mirror you cumstain, but you are meant to keep an eye out for what's behind you.. Just like you are meant to keep an eye on your speed. As for your view on there being nothing wrong with sitting at 5km/h over.. Well you are partly right with that however, where to draw the line? It seems you are one of those people that sit 65 in a 60 and 105 in a 100. So answer me this. You are happy doing 105 on a freeway.. If they increased the limit to 105.. would you still be happy? Or would you sit at 110? You saying that there is no proof of lowered road tolls since restrictions is just fucking retarded.. Possibly one of the stupidest things i've ever read from one of your posts (there is so much stupid shit, that I may actually be wrong with that statement)

I love it when you post things like this.



I agree. However this is why motorsport icon's are so frowned upon for being idiots. That F1 wanker in Melbourne having his car impounded for doing a burnout is the perfect example.. Then it results in tossers like Mark Webber calling Australia a granny country because of the road rules, not taking into consideration the amount of fully sick wog boys in their commodores that now think they are cooler than Hamilton when they rip a skid in front of a school. That wasn't a random example, that was indirect quotes from the wog boys I heard talking about a burnour they did in front of a primary school while picking their little brother up.

Also It seems I forgot to quote one person and can't be fucked going back through to find the post. Someone called a car a 1200kg weapon. That is the mentality that increases the need for these P plater restrictions. I am taking what you said in the context of your post. Yes the police view cars as weapons, weapons that kill and are dangerous in the wrong hands. If P platers looked as cars as a mode of transport, concentrated on learning to drive properly, getting experience and using a car for their proper purpose (transportation) then these laws would not be as strict. With all the bitching and whinging people do about them, they will never be removed. Engine transplants?? Seriously? All you dickhead P platers that are crying about not being able to transplant an engine.. Grow the fuck up. It's 3 years (possibly a bit more in QLD, i'm not 100% sure on your experience requirements) How hard is it to either buy a car with a decent legal engine, or just stick with the piece of shit that you have for a few years. You want to put an SR20DE in your piece of shit, or some rice up little non turbo Honda engine? Then just fucking wait. You really shouldn't be concentrating on modifying a vehicle.

Stop being so fucking "cool" You like cars? Consider yourself an enthusiast? Go to meets, go to shows, go to exhibitions, help mates work on their cars, read about other cars that you would never have even looked twice at, fucking try to fix something on your car that needs doing. It's not all about "I have this sick engine from this sick car in my sick piece of shit.. I don't even know what's so awesome about this engine, but I heard it's sick, so I got one"

Do you have any idea how many people suddenly wanted a 2JZ after the Fast and the Furious?? Fuck me. half those posers have never even heard of one before that movie.

/end rant.

mako86

i went for my life and i cant see where it says these drops in stats are purely from p plate restrictions and thats my point.

Mr.B

Because there a lot more initiatives at stake than just P plate restrictions. You can only really tell by age group from year to year. Things like investment in road conditions, stricter rulings on fraudulent hours etc all play an important role. It would political suicide to say "Oh yeah, this one thing curbed road tolls completely". There are other, often subtle and more expensive initiatives, that people don't realise actually assist in curbing road tolls. It isn't one single, solitary reform.

Simpwn91

Pretty sure if a ANYONE wants to drive dangerously, and in ANY car...theyre gonna do it whether its legal or not.
example 1: old school friend bought a turbo'd skyline after he just got his red p's (YES HE BOUGHT IT FOR 10Grand) then wrapped in around a tree drifting with one or two mates in the car. All injured, and all very lucky. Now he has a 10 grand loan to pay off and no car to show for it.
example 2: 45 yr old uncle is alcoholic, has two adult children, divorced his wife, drank drove on a daily basis...Was caught that many times he was going to jail if he didnt come up with a whole heap of money (which he didnt have) Lucky his parents stepped in and paid for it, he spent 3 years unlicensed going to AA meetings. He just got his lisence back and he drink drives already.

Its the attitude not the age.

HSV

The amount of pure fucking ignorance in this thread is outstanding.

Experience & Knowledge > Whinging uneducated, unreasonable people.

obey

You're pretty good at putting words in other peoples mouths and making out like they said it.

mako86

yes this is exactly my point. i agree that there is drops in age groups and there a lot of things that contribute to it. and thats what im getting at it not just p plate restrictions that have done this. hense why i said where is the stats to say to this. more driver training is a major one that i believe in to help reduce these stats even more for say <21yos.
i dont believe in caping the cars they drive as a major one to keep looking at. because next thing you know it will lead to p platers only being able to drive an excel lol

now im not a plater and havent been for many years but iv always grown up with its not the car its the driver. so no mater what they drive we will still have deaths on our roads.

Mr.B

The simply thing is that there is no way to determine if the restrictions alone are reducing the tolls alone. Sure, there's a high probability (greater than 95%) that it is having a significant influence. But it's very difficult to say beyond reasonable doubt that it is the sole responsibility for reduction. Because there are namely a lot of accommodating factors. But it is probably reasonable to assume that they do have a significant influence on the reduction of road toll.

That plus statisticians never deal in absolutes. They deal in probabilities.

obey

By restrictions do you mean curfew as well as vehicle restrictions?
I think it to do with curfew not vehicle restrictions.

Mr.B

Difficult to say. We know that at night people are more lethargic and become less alert due to the lack of transport vehicles on the road, slight increase in saturated oxygen in the troposphere and a number of other factors. Since both curfew and vehicular restrictions are imposed onto P platers, I'd say they both influence the over all effect.

Espress

Your high horse, get off it.

I just saw u admit to speeding and driving a defective vehicle in another thread so far as im concerned your a dangerous driver, how about we restrict you to slow cars because you have proven that you cant handle hipo vehicles safely.

Twat In The Hat

Hahahahahahaha!

HSV

Ok smart cunt, you want to play that shit do you?

Explain to me how I can't "handle hipo vehicles safely"?

Also, a link to the thread in question would be nice, seeing as I have made over 30,000 replies on the forum here and funnily enough, some of those replies I'm a bit hard remembering.............