Alfa 4c  

s13viper

no, im quite fine with people not liking it, personal opinion and all that, but trying to use things like ohh its too expensive, is utterly crazy when its literally the cheapest rwd 2 door car you can buy and defiantly the cheapest purpose built one.

It brings the fun back intro driving was missing in modern cars. Yeh its slow, i actually think its a good thing, you get to use all the power all the time without going to jail. It has the best chassis in a car under 100k, thats not even in question, its damm near perfect.

So people are fine to slag away at it, but at least put forward a good argument. Saying it doesn't put up a good lap time is pointless, i just don't care, there are plenty of other cars for that.

s13viper

Then you did it wrong, pure and simple. If you can't tell the difference then sure the car might not be for you and that's ok too.

Draven

He did it wrong??? how does that work lol

s13viper

If someone can't tell the difference between a corolla and a 86, then something is seriously wrong. Its like night and day.

Draven

Maybe to you yes... Everyone is different, why is that so hard for people to understand... Maybe they both felt similar to him due to his driving style???

s13viper

that's exactly my point. If your driving style means you can't tell the difference, then a car like the 86 isn't for them and that's totally fine. I personally don't see how that's possible but it is what it is

wolfman101

The short list of cars that look, sound, (subjective) go better and are better featured/put together than the 86, yet are in the same price bracket (around 30-40k..remembering that the version that you WANT of the 86 is 36k) would start off with:
Golf GTI
WRX
Megane RS
Clio RS
Veloster Turbo (yes, I went there-I think they are rad)

Yes, all of those (except the Clio I think) will run you 2-5k more than the 86, but that still certainly keeps them in the same market segment.
They are are all a much better choice than the 86, IMO...they all look better, sound better, are nicer places to be and are faster.

But here comes the BUT THEY AREN'T RWD HOW AM I GONNA SKID argument.
Sorry, can't help you on that one. Yes, if having the rear wheels driven is more important to you than actually going fast, then you really are shit out of luck.

s13viper

Its not about skidding or drifting really. Its about chassis balance and control and importantly with the 86 its at low speeds. You simply cannot get that from FWD or AWD cars. There are many people who don't care about such things, for them a hot hatch is perfect. For others, you can feel it instantly.

For about the 4th time, you don't buy one of these cars to go fast, you buy it to have fun. If just going fast (which all it will bring you these days is a fine and license loss) is fun to you then there is a million cars that will fit the bill. There isn't many that fit into the 86 category.

Also most people are not in the same boat as you and I, if the budget is 30k its 30k, if its 35k, its 35k, not 38 or 40. A golf GTI is 52k! The wrx 42k. The megane 265 is close to 50k as well. When looking for something small and sporty i test drove all these cars. They didn't come close in enjoyment.

Looks...subjective
Sound....subjective....i did have to buy a aftermarket exhuast to get the sound i want
Nicer to be....in the daily grind maybe, up a mountain..not a chance
Faster....0-100? 1/4? Yep, don't care though, i'm the one with the smiles.

My 86 was $35490 for the manual GTS with metallic paint. Yes, they spent the money on the chassis and the steering, id much rather that than a few extra gadgets or some real leather. Its got everything that's needed for modern convenience, its safe, costs nothing to run and is cheaper to insure.

As i said, you cannot buy a new 2 door sports car that's RWD for cheaper. So how can it be too expensive.

mark1414

You will never win, it will just go around and around in circles. Wolfman is the type of person who would buy an automatic because it is one second faster around the track. He struggles to grasp that some people car about who much fun thr car is for them to drive, not whether is sets record lap times.

vk134

No probs it was just a short drive, no mountains, but just had that Toyota corporate feel, same vents, red edge on instruments means faster model, 3 circular simple controls for HVAC, double din stereo etc, I did like the tacho was the central one though. It was probably due to the performance (acceleration) aspect I was dissapointed in, but I imagine they planned it to pass all the NVH tests and people will mod it to suit their needs, as it seems you have done.

Not bagging your choice as I'm all for bang for buck, might one day own one for shits and gigs if something comes past at the right odds, but after growing up with XU-1's setup purely for mountain blasting, It's not a segment that catches me much anymore, but enjoy, it would be great to see some sort of lakeside test day with all the segment of cars mentioned.

wolfman101

GTIs have been selling at sub-40k for a while now, in anticipation of the MK7.
http://news.drive.com.au/drive/motor-news/...1003-26yam.html

As for faster, don't make it seem like all I am talking about is straight line speed. All of those cars will also go around a track quicker.



...despite having aknowledged many times, including in this thread, that the most fun car he's owned possessed 91 HP.
Do you even read?

At the end of the day, a Megane RS (not the 265, which is out of scope) is 41,990. In this climate you will comfortably get it down to 40. Yes, it's 5k more, but will still be cross-shopped with the 86, and I think anyone would be mad to pass it up. It will run rings around it, sounds porn, looks porner, and is a much nicer place to be.

Don't act like I don't understand the joy of RWD either-of course I do. I'm on my third RWD performance car. There is a certain attraction-it requires a different driving style, I get it. When weighing equals in all other aspects, it may be the deciding factor for me too. But when weighing the competition agaiinst the 86, which is just so deficient in just so many areas, the fact that all it has is RWD "feel" is not nearly enough to make me choose it over its competition, regardless of how fun it may be.

But as Mark pointed out, we may value different things these days. I sometimes miss the fact that I no longer have my old Roady, that was so alive, but slow as arse, and may buy one again just to blat around in to the gym or work or whatever. I "get" fun. It just can't be ALL a car has.

2fifty

i would still buy a used 135i over a 86, megane, wrx, evo, etc.... ANYDAY.

rwd
twin turbo if you get the n54 engine
manual
and ridiculous potential to increase power with a single plug and play ecu

wolfman101

They are indeed a straight line speed bargain. A bit boring looking though, and bland inside. Also, new of course they would be in the 4C price range, which is far from the 86 range.
Seriously though, the 4C, if enough are brought in, is going to cause MAYHEM in that segment. Never been anything like it at that price point in this country.
Can't wait.

2fifty

i don't think its boring looking compared to most of the hot hatches you've mentioned, yeah the interior is plain and simple, but the quality is still on another level compared to the 86 haha. Yeah the 235i is in the same price range as the 4c so it would be interesting to see what is better performance and handling wise.

wolfman101

You think the Megane RS is boring looking?

It's one of the best looking cars on the road IMO. The 4c is one of the best looking cars of this GENERATION though...
Anyway, those are all much cheaper cars. The 135i is quite plain looking at it's price point.

2fifty

personally i don't like a car that looks faster than it is. which is why i prefer the 135i.

wolfman101

Huh? I'd have to look up times, but I'm pretty sure the megane rs, and definitely the 265 runs rings around the 135 on a track. On phone atm, so hard to check.

Draven

Not boring just horrid lol

wolfman101

Yep, absolutely slaughters it on the Nordschleiffe:
http://fastestlaps.com/tracks/nordschleife.html
8:07 Plays 8:18. Not even in the same league.
For comparison, the 4c runs 8:04.

Drav, I KNOW you hate modern cars...but really? Horrid? Don't think that's a bit strong?


It's like a frog from hell.

Draven

Only thing i like a little on it is the pumped guards

vk134

Trust me Draven, the pumped guards do look good on the road

wolfman101

It's overstyled, but it works. Unlike, say, new Rexus cars that are overstyled and look overstyled.

s13viper

I'm still talking new cars only. If you open it up to used cars then there is a million different cars that fits the bill. Everyone knows buying a brand new car is silly financially. A new golf gti will comfortably push 50k.

You know i have other cars for things like track times, comfort and speed, but when you look at what the 86 is actually for though, there is no real competition. Its not a perfect car by any means, but what its designed to do its close to perfection.

I quite liked the rs as i tested one of those as well but like all the other hot hatch's, being FWD made it completely pointless for what i wanted.

Also noone i know who bought their 86 cross shopped with the rs, 5k is far too much more money when the car is only 35k. 15% more money is alot at this end of the market. 5k is not so much when your adding the big brake package to a S4, it is when its 15% of the total price though. Most would argue that getting 95% of a Porsche driving experience for 30k is crazy to pass up. It all depends on perspective i guess.

Money didn't really even eventuate into my calculation, it simply came down to the fact it was the most fun car to drive out of everything i test drove. Nothing more, nothing less.

Its not for everyone, it makes you work for it, its perfectly controllable at the limit, all the nanny electronics can be turned off, it requires effort be put into the drive. Not everyone will like all these points, but its extremely rewarding when it all comes together. The "issues" like the fact it has a corolla interior just does not matter.





I looked at that, but again, its chassis is useless, its fast yes, but dynamically a letdown. The steering is a bit dead as well. Loads of power though.
We are also talking new cars only here

wolfman101

Yes, I was talking new cars too. Mk6 gtis have been selling at 39k new for the last year.

wolfman101

Also, the interior is significantly worse than a new Corolla, actually .

wolfman101

Like I said-no argument that it won't be fun to drive. Just that a car can't survive on that alone for me. It has no other redeeming quality. Remember, from my perspective it is slow, ugly, bad sounding, poorly built and under featured... But fun.
If it only fell down in one or two of those categories it would be another story-nothing's perfect.

s13viper

Good value in isolation then. Still 4k more than a gts and has all the problems iv'e spoken of.




Even if that was true (which i don't think for a second) it doesn't matter, it could be cardboard and i wouldn't care.

wolfman101

Been driving a lot of rental corollas recently. Quite impressed with build quality.

2fifty

Wolfie, i took a photo for you.

Top Gear Australia November Issue

Alfa 4c

wolfman101

Thanks.
Good to see that they are still covering up the Australia in the title hoping that people accidentally buy it thinking it is the UK version.

clutch-monkey

what does it need power steering for though? it weighs nothing lol

go over to the 86 forums for a laugh lol
i don't mind them but most of the owners seem to fap over opticoat and future classic status (LOL).

Mr.B

This.

wolfman101

Hard to see how they are rationalising THAT one in their heads.
I've never SEEN so many of one new type of car crop up so quickly!
Then again, I suppose a car doesn't necessarily HAVE to be rare to be a classic. Aren't first gen MX-5s actually quite sought after or something?

The 4c on the other hand...I have no doubt that thing absolutely WILL be super desirable in generations to come.
Rare, pioneering in tech, drop-dead gorgeous, and HOPEFULLY marking the return of Alfa to the world stage.

s13viper

Im not so sure about future classic status, in fact it won't be. In 4 or 5 years it will be pretty popular still though simply due to how cheap they will be. Probably find stock ones will be more sought after than modded ones.

As someone who has done opticoat to a few cars, it really is incredible, even after 2 years without a polish every time i wash the Audi it looks better than brand new. The 86 also comes up looking great. Its pretty darn good for around $500

wolfman101

hmmm...I'm interested. Having two black cars is farkeeed