Any Holden 355 Blocks/ Engine Builders  

Wraith

Sus out Pavtek. Very cheap.

Pavtek

pvk308

Alot will depend on the intended use mate i am currently looking at doing a 355 and it should make 580 -600 hp with standard heads and a roller cam.

The 288 is a great camtried and tested well and should see a motor with the right compression make an honest 520 or less hp but there are other choices out there in a roller or flat tappet solid which can get you the desired results look around mate and see what everyone else is using and the intended use.

Alloy heads are a waste of time unless your making 650 hp plus and your comp is over 12.8 any engine builder will tell you that you just need to find the right guy to do the heads ...... the guy who has built my previous engines can quite easly get 620 out of a set of cast heads plus his engines have been in some of the toughest true street categorie cars for the last 5 yrs so thouraghly recomend him.

Good idea on going the head stud kit i would also recomend a mains stud kit as well plus for added insurance you can go a stud girdle to keep it strongand together holden engines are notorius for cap walk when getting over 7200 rpm continuosly

As for stroker cranks my preferance has always been harrop and come a second but some are getting result with the scat or eagle gear as the saying goes you get what you pay for so look into it more and again it will depend on the intended use

Rods can either be a h beam or an i beam again use a good rod and again you get what you pay for

Pistons depending on intended use depends on piston choice, I would look at forged pistons for strength and relaibility especially if you want to throw some race fuel or n2o in the mix

Not to keen on the twin throttle manifolds a harrop single plain or a torque power single plain with a single throttle body will net you the best results with a 288 cam but if you want to keep it under the bonnet then you might have to look at it

gearbox will depend on if its a trimatic or turbo pattern block but a wel built trimatic can handle 500 and a well built t350 can handle 550 with out a drama.......

then there are the machining costs plus parts eg valve seats, guides, port work on heads, fitting valves springs etc etc i would budget a minimum of 4000 k depending on how hard you go.... alloys are 2500 k each bare and then you still have to tidy them up the cost quickly adds up. As for the block machining plus parts eg rebore out to 30 thou over, torqueplate honing, fitting of cam bearings, clearancing etc then parts i would say budget an easy 6000 k. Then the manifold and if you go a throttle body i would look at an easy 2500 k

So all up to make a 355 that will be a reasonable performer your looking at 12.500 k as a minimum then add al the incidentals in to it i know my 355 is looking at close to 18.500 k.... Best thing i can recomend is look at other peoples combinations to see whats making the figures you want shop around cant say that enough have a plan and a budget and stick to it hope it helps

ONN20

I can see over $20k quite easily there in what you have listed!

What car is it?

pvk308

Omn20 that is real rough guide mate and is very similar to one of my engine builders entry level 355 what i have listed is what i was originally going with myself and having the maching out sourced and me building it, but you are right any shop has a starter price on avergae a 500 hp engine is around the 12.5k mark and a 550 hp engine is 15k so anything over is throw the cheque book out time

Wraith

Or you could hmm I don't know have a look at the link I posted.

lil_bobby_260

Seems cheaper to buy an LSX crate motor.

pvk308

Yes i saw that and its ok for a daily driver and if you want to be part of the i have a 355 brigade but performance wise dont bother my 308 makes on 485 hp and isnt a stroker and runs an 11 flat on 98 ron it is a daily driver if i wanted it to be you get what you pay for and again depends on the intended use...... if hes looking at a 288 crane cam hes looking at making hp or an engine that has some mumbo to it but still be streetable

pvk308

i didnt want to say anything but yes your right

89_MA71_Turbo

OK... lots more to look into..... the car is a VQ stato... intended use is really more of a show sort of thing....
car has ALOT of sentimental value to missus and is more of a car that wont be street driven but kept in memory
built how original owner wanted it... and will be seeing power cruise like events and HOPEFULLY Nats 2014...
so doesnt have to be relieable enough for daily use but obviously best possible.... (know to many 355's built dodgy and rarely see the street due to be being fixed),,,,, an LS1 converions was also a option but havent looked into it so would also depend on pricing....

Really in the end if we can have it sounding real lumpy and putting out 400hp+atw would be happy

lil_bobby_260

A VQ Stato? Really? I cant fathom how much sentimental value a VQ would have to hold, for someone to want to do it up as a showcar. Especially with the level of showcars these days... Bit of an ugly duckling.
Advice is - do as little as possible! Just fit a better camshaft, a set of headers and a decent exhaust. Maybe one of those growler intake kits.

pvk308

I cant agree more with this i have been building holden engines for 25 yrs and this is so true, 400 at the tyres in a vq is easy enough done with that cam mate and is very dooable, you will need roughly 500-550 at the flywheel to get you there comfortably. The 355 is going to need to be well built to get there, its easy enough to throw them together with brand parts and expect them to perform but to get them to last thats where the trick is and the money comes in............................... the ls1 would be ideally the way to go you could do a cam and head work on an ls1and have it see 550 relatively easily throw some turbos or a supercharger on it and then your making scarey hp and it could be done for roughly the same price as a really well built stroker ....... depends on what you want to go mate the options are endless

pvk308

Would be intersting to see it done though not many around

89_MA71_Turbo

ok will look into a LS convo... would you have a off the top price for it??? or any decent places to look into???

the sentimental comes from the missus father who adored the car.. was his pride and joy... he then handed it to the missus 2 weeks before he died..... so thats the reason for bothering with it

ive attached a pic of it from when we just done the paint... but have found the colour Plum Crazy so is about to stripped back and done again with a few extras added... like a SS kit with Caprice bob-tail... different wheels and airbrushing.... hopefully end product will be half respectable

TwinCam16

If you are hell bent on doing it the hard way (read-build the 304 rather than ls1) why would you use a 355 crank and not go to a 383?

overandout

Ls motors are the future LOL i have one in a vl and i'd never go back to a 355 again

Wraith

People are worried about 383's being unreliable etc because of the extra machining involved (even if it's 3 tenths of bugger all.)

LS1 would be the way to go but don't expect much change out of 10k. That's also if you can do some of the wiring etc. yourself.

TwinCam16

Everything i have read has been pro 383. If anything people say its more reliable than the 355. the extra area is like you said, funk all.

Wraith

It's just what people are used to and aren't keen on running anything else. 383 all the way. No replacement for displacement

pvk308

hmm nothing like a tough 383 either i remember seeing pvl 383 one fo the first Gerry Copper 383s in action dman it was tough and goood for 9.43 time slip......... Come is doing a 396 kit suppossed to be just as equally tough some..... I had read about being used but havent seen one in action



Block clearancing in a 383 is the same for a 355 depending on what year block you have well worth the effort though



overandout is on the money thses days its the ls1 or better lsx

cronic_someone

thank you why go 355 when theres 383 seriously more torque the better oh and cubes

pvk308

Hmm fair point about the cubes and the 383 does produce good torque for less rpm but no pont in having all the torque, even though it is a contributing factor in an engine packages overall performance and no horsepower to go with it. It doesnt matter if its a trailer queen, dyno queen, street car or drag car horse power is what everyone wants, talks about and desires but most of all it sells engines

180sc

but the vq would benefit from the extra torque the 383 will give due the the extra weight it carries.

Wraith

You are aware torque is what you want in a street car. Also aware HP is a magical number guesstimated by going off the torque.

pvk308

Yes well aware on both counts and sorry im thinking the intended application is for drag racing not street use, the brain is geared for my engine at the moment hence the tunnel vision. How many engines do you see being sold or qutoed on torque figures its always the hp figure quoted or sold damn even when you work out your times on a morrosso calculator as an example the key figure your quoting is hp its just the way the engine builders etc speak so the average joe blo can understand or gloat

vk134

I've read through the rest of the posts and there is a lot of great info in there, I have seen it many times the ultimate pursuit of horsepower ends up costing more overall and takes out the reliability and streetablity.

I guess it really comes down to your budget and realistic expectations also the amount of work you are prepared to do yourself. It forever used to bore the living fk out of me the "fn ay, just spent $20k on my motor", was some mismatched turd of a thing, but it had all the brand name stuff, so must be worth it in their uneducated mind.

If you want power, the LS path is well worn and easily available, once you spend more that $9k down the holden path it is really diminishing returns, people will bang on about lots of things, but you need to have a set goal and stick to it, I respect what you are trying to do.

If it was for my use I would probably focus on more the tough streeter that will pass any police hassles. So with that in mind I would probably stick with what you have and see what you can do with that.

The biggest limiting factor is the stock manifold, but with a bit of porting and with a bigger throttle body 70mm @$300 or cheaper, it will be good up to 5500 rpm peak hp with max RPM 6500, but GREAT driveability, torque and bottom end. With that RPM range in mind, you really wont be needing any hard core performance parts, more just optimising what you have.

I would next focus on getting the heads done, pretty much identical to the PAVTEK spec ones, no need for anything over the top, a nice set of roller rockers to keep it all working efficiently, budget about $2k , once again keeping the who lot as a matched package.

To match that setup I would focus on a good set of headers, you can go to the 44mm 1 ¾" ones, they flow nice and much the same price, good if you want to go bigger cam etc later. Get the rest of the exhaust as smooth flowing mandrel bent as you can, high flow cats to single 3" will be fine and keep under the evil 90dba. limit.

Now to the bottom end, keeping 304 as is, same machining costs for all options, boring, honing, bearings etc, the stroker only means you will need a die grinder to clearance the block for the rods, you can dummy that and do it yourself. You will be needing the die grinder anyway to get rid of all the casting dags and helping the oil flow back to the sump, really just a messy day of work before block goes to get hot tanked.

The 304 vs stroker options, you are up for new pistons/rings in both options, new ARP rod bolts, resizing rods to get exact clearance, so it come down to really the crank and rods, the VN rod with ARP bolts will hang in at 6500rpm all day long, can use them in stock or stroker; stroker cranks, well it comes down to Harrop or Scat, do not try to save money at this point, weigh up the costs of getting the machining work done on your 304 crank, probably and $800 decision 304 vs stroker, and cubic inches does make a difference, so I personally would lean towards the 355 stroker option. 383's there are issues with piston thrust and other clearance issue, but having never personally dealt with one I won't bother going into it any more.

Now the part that make the difference, the camshaft, I guess you focus on the RPM range and compression as these are fixed at the build stage, for 98 RON, we will stick with 10.1, a very common combination compression ratio. The next key is LCA or lobe centreline angle this is determined by cubic inches per cylinder by valve diameter, 1.94 in this case, simply calculated, a 304 is 19.58, a 355 is 22.87, optimum LCA is 110 for 304 and about 107 for 355. The next key is the overlap as this is the driveability factory with this being an auto and needing good vacuum for brakes as well as not bleeding off too much compression. too much, while it sounds tough will kill this combination. Then there is the final lift figure, this in conjunction with the roller rockers, you really don't need to go overboard here, but shorter duration higher lift work better for bottom end to put it simply, that is why hydraulic roller cams have really come out as the choice of OEM, but that is another $1000 more to consider, but no cam wear issues that plague holden V8's and much better driveablity without sacrificing top end power. It really is about getting the valve as open as fast as it can be and as closed as fast as it can, to fill the cylinder the optimum amount.

Contact Crane, COME, Pavtek etc and really be up front with exact usage and they will get you pretty well spot on, stick to well known brands.

Make sure you have good tappet cover to sump airflow, use the factory PCV's, plumb one down to where the mech fuel pump would be on the earlier ones, just stops the top end over oiling issues, a stock holden oil pump work fine in this RPM range.

MSD dissy and rev limiter will be fine for this combo, just run copper plugs, no need for iridium.

Myself I would go the hydraulic roller cammed 355 stroker, combined with a 3000rpm stall converter with a rebuilt box from Bob Grant and a set of 3.9 gears, the OD box will help with the fuel economy and with the combo you have will just respond the second you hit the throttle.

just the box and gears in a bog stock VN dropped it from, 16.8 quarters to 14.7, but was still driveable not revving it's ring off on the highway.

JakeSRIT

My bro got his maloo stroked out to 7ltr after he blew the 6.2 to hell!. needed a whole new block/sump setup, so i dont know how much that effected the price, ended up being $16500 and has about 700hp at the fly, about 460kws atws thats about 620ish hp atw. he got the works tho full forged internals throughout.

dont know how much help that will be but thought the money side of things might clear up some confusion. was done at powertorque in brissy.

pvk308

That sounds remarkably like an ls1 what did he do to crap the block. Of course the prices are going to be differnt your comparing an ls1 that has a huge aftermarket parts market where parts are reasonably priced and readily available as compared to a holden v8 engine that has a limited choice in aftermarket parts and a high cost to buy no comparison really if you look at that on its own the ls1 wins hands down

vk134

that pretty well sums it up, just due to this fact it is really only a legal/racing class/loyalty thing that will make you keep with the 308, with any of thse sort of projects, you really have to write every cost down before you start, especially conversions, I've lost count of the number of times I have seen people start one because they got an engine cheap only to be blown out with what is involved.

If you want or need more than 450hp on the street, financially the Ls1 wins, but up to the individual how much they want to throw at it I suppose

pvk308

I agree vk134 its the truth unfortunately

vk134

But then see how many people catch you in a VK with a 355 built like I mentioned, only 400hp and street legal, but the fattest most usable torque curve, coupled with a 5 speed and 3.9 gears, even if built for circuit work, it will still do an easy 13 second pass without any effort, yet still be fun to drive.

Just leave it to the chequebook warriors to tell you how much they have spent to go a whole 2 seconds faster for 5 times the price. I'd rather spend it on fuel drivin the the fn wheels off it, not worrying about mechanical failure.

JakeSRIT

Well a dodgy shop, i wont mention names but it is in the cleveland area, installed a custom grind cam and lifters into the 6.2. one night coming back from gym he turned the corner, changed down to 3rd and bam metal and oil everywhere. he was not reving it out i saw where it poped and it would have been 50meters from the corner so even if he was up it it would have been 4000 rpm or so.

we suspect the cam timiing was off and a valve opened up as the piston went up, caused it to seeze and caused the pushrod to shoot out the bottom of the block. of course the shop did not take responsibility for the failure so we had to fit the bill. it is a 2010 maloo too so it was a ls3. needless to say we had it towed to powertorque and they performed the rebuild and reccommended the 7ltr option.

so thats the story.

clutch-monkey

why not? i'm in that area and would like to know in case of future dealings, and it seems like a legitimate complaint.

pvk308

hehehe my stock stroke 308 is good for 11s flat on et streets give it a 26 x 10 slick and it should see high 10s nothing like beating big money motors with small cubes....... Nothing beats the chequer book warrior they know everything

vk134

Nice work, that is a pretty stout time, bloody fast for me. Yes when I was referring to 13's was, no burnout, street tyres, soft launch, change at 5500, any old muppet can hang onto, I have seen torries and early commodores regularly into the 11's and 10's with so called "low horsepower builds" and other big dollar, mega cammed , missmatched combos fall on their arse and struggle to manage an 11.

Prev I had and L34, all it had was a isky cam, some porting and better stainless valves, higher compression forged pistons, everything else was stock L34, it only made 200 rwhp but easy to do 14.1 @ 101mph with the 3.0 gears, you only used 1st and second gear, but was setup more for driving long distance. But it seemed to be able to have no problems getting away from 12 second 400hp chequebook warriors, as they would say, must need a tune, I'll have to see my mechanic.....