LoginP Plate Restrictions - Done to death I know but hoping for a decent conversation.
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deadpulse
Post #351
My mate got a turbo permit for his wrx and he's only 17, told the government he couldn't use his mum's car because she studied full time. Couldn't walk to the nearest bus stop because he suffers from Scoliosis and it hurts to much to walk to the bus stop. Thus, he had to use the 'wrx' to get to university.. |
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28th March 2011 - 04:48 AM
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truffles
Post #352
QUOTE (deadpulse @ Mar 28 2011, 10:48 PM)  My mate got a turbo permit for his wrx and he's only 17, told the government he couldn't use his mum's car because she studied full time. Couldn't walk to the nearest bus stop because he suffers from Scoliosis and it hurts to much to walk to the bus stop. Thus, he had to use the 'wrx' to get to university.. What a hero.. 
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DAL32
Post #353
QUOTE (Ralli @ Mar 28 2011, 06:57 PM) Now don't get me wrong, not ALL P Platers are like this, however the majority are. They also seem to get given alot of things these days, lucky them, but an example, one of my friends just bought her daughter a car .... she hasn't even got her p's yet. Also we had a father and daughter come in today. Father bought Daughter a brand new cruze and she is still on her L's .. I am sorry , but this shits me , a little ... I had to buy my own first car, no way would my parents buy me one. My first car was a shitbox , as was most of ours , with people my age. This is what this generation is about, i am sorry but they are given everything, and because of this, produces this attitude that they have ..... You work in new cars (or deal with), of course someone every other day is coming in to buy them a car. How many 17 year olds do you think there are? Some of them are just lucky. QUOTE (truffles @ Mar 28 2011, 09:43 PM) Partially less and partially no. He would have got an exemption for being a famous wanker. I have a mate who played junior tour with him and says his age has changed over the years, along with his story. Of course, in 2000 he was 8 and in 2001 he was 9, and now he's 19 in 2011. lol. As for the story, well his name suggests it obviously hides some sort of off colour eastern european history. 
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DAL32
Post #354
QUOTE (deadpulse @ Mar 28 2011, 10:48 PM) My mate got a turbo permit for his wrx and he's only 17, told the government he couldn't use his mum's car because she studied full time. Couldn't walk to the nearest bus stop because he suffers from Scoliosis and it hurts to much to walk to the bus stop. Thus, he had to use the 'wrx' to get to university.. Ya know, at university I walked probably 1-2km in a day walking to/from my car and classes. |
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truffles
Post #355
QUOTE (DAL32 @ Mar 29 2011, 01:43 AM) You work in new cars (or deal with), of course someone every other day is coming in to buy them a car. How many 17 year olds do you think there are? Some of them are just lucky. Of course, in 2000 he was 8 and in 2001 he was 9, and now he's 19 in 2011. lol. As for the story, well his name suggests it obviously hides some sort of off colour eastern european history. Nah. As I was was saying, when he was playing juniors he was my age (born 1990) and then it somehow changed..as you do. |
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mark1414
Post #356
QUOTE (Espress @ Mar 28 2011, 07:48 PM) If we didn't fight and argue against silly laws the Americans would still have a ban on alcohol. But that law affected powerful people. This law only affects 17 and 18 year old kids who's best argument is "bro i should totally be allowed to drive my fully sick turbo car cause it goes pssshhhh" QUOTE (deadpulse @ Mar 28 2011, 10:48 PM) My mate got a turbo permit for his wrx and he's only 17, told the government he couldn't use his mum's car because she studied full time. Couldn't walk to the nearest bus stop because he suffers from Scoliosis and it hurts to much to walk to the bus stop. Thus, he had to use the 'wrx' to get to university.. brb getting scoliosis |
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Bence
Post #359
I agree with you completely. I have a v8 2004 statesman waiting for me to come off my p plates. But the fact of the matter is I currently drive a v6 statesman and even though I shall be driving my v8 soon the only major increase I'm going to get is power and if I wanted I could create Just as much havoc in the v6 as the v8. It's the attitude of drivers not age! But it happens! |
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Eternal Angel
Post #360
Ok..so without reading the pages and pages of replies, I have read the topic starter and am only replying to that (so pardon the repeat, if there is one) |
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HP Plod
Post #361
QUOTE (Eternal Angel @ Mar 29 2011, 09:11 AM) Ok..so without reading the pages and pages of replies, I have read the topic starter and am only replying to that (so pardon the repeat, if there is one) I agree. It's the driver not the car. But how does the Govt. determine who can drive what and under what circumstances? What testing would be involved and for the most part, people are idiots. Carelessness and being challenged is what causes most accidents that involve in death or severe accidents, which means giving a higher powered car to someone would be dangerous. There is also the aspect of brain development which has proven that the part of your brain that thinks about consequences before acting isn't mature till later on, so at a 'P-Plater' age, some just act before they think. It's a bit like having as many people as you like in a L-Plater's car but you can only have so many once you are a P-Plater. I think it would be harder to learn with screaming siblings and possibly two parents telling you what to do, than having 3 friends in the car and telling them to shut up. Blanket rules suck ass. There's no doubt. But I guess the ultimate question is how do they determine that you're intelligent enough not to kill yourself and put others at risk when you drive? And then of course, you have those that would drive a high powered car regardless..and you just have the sensible law abiding people doing the right thing anyway. Bit like the Guns Laws. exactly how does one determine attitude and driving ability etc as you have pointed out... you can't, so the rules have to be blanketed acorss the board becuase of the outcomes of a select few. What amuses me is the impatience of youth today, its 3 years people, my advice buy a daily that is affordable, and then put your coin into an account to save for the impending high powered beast you have always wanted in 3 years.... whats the rush to drive a big car??? Think about it, everyone your age is in the same boat, they all have to drive non high powered vehicles, so why the need to show off that your ride is bigger faster, more high powered? Peer pressue is ridiculous (I say this now of course, I'm old) If i had it my way, you'd all be driving 4 cyl.'s, I mean look at that car wreck in Vic the other day, V6 I'm assuming, 22 year old driver, massively high speed to do that carnage, its a waste of life and for what, a cheap thrill? Be patient people, use the time to adopt amental attitude worthy of the older road users, trouble is your generation is giving the government cannon fodder with images like we see every day of young people dying becuase of speed etc, we need to tone you down so we reduce the cars you can drive, we are not there to piss you off we are therer to ultimately ATTEMPT!! to save your life. Buck stops with you. |
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Eternal Angel
Post #362
HP Plod, well said. (that being said...I have yet to own a turbo'd car..and am not in a rush to either. My Liberty just blew up the other day...so busy repairing that first.) |
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B Unit
Post #363
QUOTE (HP Plod @ Mar 29 2011, 09:20 AM) exactly how does one determine attitude and driving ability etc as you have pointed out... you can't, so the rules have to be blanketed acorss the board becuase of the outcomes of a select few. What amuses me is the impatience of youth today, its 3 years people, my advice buy a daily that is affordable, and then put your coin into an account to save for the impending high powered beast you have always wanted in 3 years.... whats the rush to drive a big car??? Think about it, everyone your age is in the same boat, they all have to drive non high powered vehicles, so why the need to show off that your ride is bigger faster, more high powered? Peer pressue is ridiculous (I say this now of course, I'm old) If i had it my way, you'd all be driving 4 cyl.'s, I mean look at that car wreck in Vic the other day, V6 I'm assuming, 22 year old driver, massively high speed to do that carnage, its a waste of life and for what, a cheap thrill? Be patient people, use the time to adopt amental attitude worthy of the older road users, trouble is your generation is giving the government cannon fodder with images like we see every day of young people dying becuase of speed etc, we need to tone you down so we reduce the cars you can drive, we are not there to piss you off we are therer to ultimately ATTEMPT!! to save your life. Buck stops with you. Bolded part so much. Old crew signing in. My first car was a HQ Kingswood, 173 6 cylinder with a 3 speed column shift manual. I drove it like that on stock wheels and tyres til I was 19 before I dropped a V8 and 5 speed manual into the old girl. So I basically did nearly 3 years (probably 2.5) of driving on a slow arse car even though there was no restrictions on me. Very few people in our day could afford to jump straight into V8's at 17, turbo cars were just way too far out of the price range, and not accessable. These days with imports, high powered turbos are cheap as chips. I also agree that there are some 40 year olds that can't drive for shit, and should have restrictions placed on them also, but this is pretty tough to govern. A blanket rule was the quick easy fix that the gov were looking for, so P platers had to wear it. |
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deadpulse
Post #364
QUOTE (Eternal Angel @ Mar 29 2011, 09:26 AM) Youth of today..is rude, disrespectful and impatient. (most of them) And that's coming from someone who is in their 20's Well that's a pretty big assumption, i don't know what youth you've encountered in your life time. But i know myself that i should treat others as i'd like to be treated. I know for a fact that the vast majority of my friends aren't like that at all either. But their is some truth to your comment, i know coming from a private school a large majority are drop kicks and will continue to be. I think once someone as the mindset to hoon (and replicate what they've seen on tv/youtube) you can't really change it... but i think once they spin out and hit a pole they'll have a major wake up call (providing there not dead). |
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Ralli
Post #365
QUOTE (DAL32 @ Mar 29 2011, 01:43 AM) You work in new cars (or deal with), of course someone every other day is coming in to buy them a car. How many 17 year olds do you think there are? Some of them are just lucky. I realise this, I was just stating a fact ... urgh ! QUOTE (HP Plod @ Mar 29 2011, 09:20 AM) exactly how does one determine attitude and driving ability etc as you have pointed out... you can't, so the rules have to be blanketed acorss the board becuase of the outcomes of a select few. What amuses me is the impatience of youth today, its 3 years people, my advice buy a daily that is affordable, and then put your coin into an account to save for the impending high powered beast you have always wanted in 3 years.... whats the rush to drive a big car??? Think about it, everyone your age is in the same boat, they all have to drive non high powered vehicles, so why the need to show off that your ride is bigger faster, more high powered? Peer pressue is ridiculous (I say this now of course, I'm old) If i had it my way, you'd all be driving 4 cyl.'s, I mean look at that car wreck in Vic the other day, V6 I'm assuming, 22 year old driver, massively high speed to do that carnage, its a waste of life and for what, a cheap thrill? Be patient people, use the time to adopt amental attitude worthy of the older road users, trouble is your generation is giving the government cannon fodder with images like we see every day of young people dying becuase of speed etc, we need to tone you down so we reduce the cars you can drive, we are not there to piss you off we are therer to ultimately ATTEMPT!! to save your life. Buck stops with you. Well Said, and so so true ..... TBH, I think young kids should drive similar cars to what we did , no ABS, no power steering and no air con ... 
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HP Plod
Post #366
[quote name='B Unit' date='Mar 29 2011, 09:28 AM' post='1287213964'] |
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Eternal Angel
Post #367
QUOTE (deadpulse @ Mar 29 2011, 10:32 AM) Well that's a pretty big assumption, i don't know what youth you've encountered in your life time. But i know myself that i should treat others as i'd like to be treated. I know for a fact that the vast majority of my friends aren't like that at all either. But their is some truth to your comment, i know coming from a private school a large majority are drop kicks and will continue to be. I think once someone as the mindset to hoon (and replicate what they've seen on tv/youtube) you can't really change it... but i think once they spin out and hit a pole they'll have a major wake up call (providing there not dead). It's partly due to area, and I grew up attending both public and private schools. Like I said, it's not -all-, just a majority. There are dropkicks in every generation, just sadly, it seems to be getting worse each one down the line. |
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HP Plod
Post #368
QUOTE (deadpulse @ Mar 29 2011, 09:32 AM) Well that's a pretty big assumption, i don't know what youth you've encountered in your life time. But i know myself that i should treat others as i'd like to be treated. I know for a fact that the vast majority of my friends aren't like that at all either. But their is some truth to your comment, i know coming from a private school a large majority are drop kicks and will continue to be. I think once someone as the mindset to hoon (and replicate what they've seen on tv/youtube) you can't really change it... but i think once they spin out and hit a pole they'll have a major wake up call (providing there not dead). drag the dickheads to a morgue and show them what a 6 cyl vehicle can do to sa human body and they may think twice about a high powered car... trouble is majority have the " They were just unlucky, this won't happen to me, I'm a great driver." I get this as an excuse quite often, example, speed related offence "Check my driving records officer, it is impeccable, never an accident, no tickets." Very True, thats excellent, highly commendable traffic record... but what about the dick that has the abomination of a traffic history, who couldn't drive prices up in a super market, coming out of the side street, trying to re-enact Tokyo drifting and then slides out into your path? at the speed i caught you at, you're stopping distance has increased and therefore, there may be a tarnish on that record, whereas if you were doing the limit, you may stop and let the idiot drive past. |
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Evaded Motorsport
Post #370
This is a mixed subject for me. |
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HP Plod
Post #371
QUOTE (Evaded Motorsport @ Mar 29 2011, 11:16 AM) This is a mixed subject for me. I grew up under the old P Plate Laws. I like the idea that they are doing something, however I think the P Plate restrictions are horribly thought out and poorly conceived at best. I held a CAMS license from the age of 16, and competed in Motorkhanas from 14 and was racing before I could even get my driver's license. I now also drive close to 2,000km a week and deal with useless drivers every day. (Police included, the amount of you that don't use your indicators, speed, tail gate and the like is ridiculous. The hypocrisy is ridiculous.) Threat assessment and cognitive processing is the biggest thing that needs to be sorted out before people are even on the road. There is almost no training for this in schools, I tried having a program implemented in my school and it went no where. This issue is symptamtic in older drivers as well, particularly women but men also who just stare straight ahead, they pay no attention to the cars around them. You don't need to just drive your car you need to drive the 10 other cars around you. You may not have an accident but if they looked in their rear view mirror they may see the carnage left behind. The next step is Driver Training, the initial steps of gaining your license. This is far too heavily orientated towards obtaining your license and not safe driving. Yes there is a difference, all the driving test dealt with was basic driving skills and road rules. I love the introduction of a minimum of 100 Hours of supervised driver training. Research in Sweden shows that people who average 118hours of supervised driver training will have a reduction in crash risk by 35%. The issue comes from instructors and parents. I see parents and instructors alike teaching horrible habits and even instructors just driving in generally average ways. They don't teach common courtesy and these horrible habits are carried on throughout the persons driving career and then passed on to their children. I honestly don't know how to repair the issues associated with driver training. I like the initiatives in place with regards to the log book etc. The effect of these bad habits has a flow on effect, you have various types of people on the road, impatient, patient etc etc. Failing to pay attention to speed limit changes, (That is my favourite, doing 90 in a 100 zone and then doing 90 in a 80 zone.) Hogging the right hand lane at any speed, Lane Jumping (using the slip lane to get in front of people), the inability of people to take the first safe opportunity to enter a round about (this is my second pet hat, people sitting at round abouts unable to enter after 10 opportunities) or how to merge safely. The list goes on but these are all issues that are not being stamped out during driver training. These issues cause impatience and poorly thought out manouvers resulting in accidents, traffic jams and whatever other flow on effects. I like the graduated Licensing System they have in NSW with tests requried to move up a license level, I haven't tried the tests so I couldn't comment on their effectiveness but I can see the system working, I dislike the speed limits they impose. Whoever introduced that law needs to be shot in the head. I would love to see some compulsary automotive workshops with regards to keeping your car in safe order, checking the oil, tyres etc. I would love to see some auditing of fully licensed drivers every 5 years or so, Australian's see driving as too much of a right. I still think issues won't be resolved until someone kicks driver trainers and parents in the butt to fix bad driving habits. Anyway I digress, the point I was trying to make is that the restrictions are poorly thoughtout which I will get to now. I've driven everything from an old Datsun 200B to an F430 and Carrera Cup Car. Off the QT site (I thought there were more exempt vehicles) •Suzuki Cappuccino 2D Cabriolet Turbo 3 657-698cc (1992-1997) •Daihatsu Copen L880 2D Convertible Turbo 4 659cc (2003 or later) •Smart fortwo coupe 2D Turbo 3 698cc (2000 or later) •Smart fortwo Cabriolet Turbo 3 2D 698cc (2000 or later) •Smart Roadster Turbo 3 2D 698cc (2000 or later). It is absurd that the new VW's aren't on the list along with various other cars. very safe cars that barely have enough power to move. Yet they are banned. Yet my TDI polo is perfectly legal for P Platers and can easily be turned into a high 13 second car while it still looks completey stock using bolt on VW Parts and the R32 golf is alowable. The argument that all of them should be driving 4 Cylinders is stupid. It would have to be the ridiculous and short sighted idea I have ever come across. There are plenty of P Plate eligible cars in the 4 Cylinder range that are quicker and more difficult to drive than the majority of 6 Cylinder wagons. The issue comes from socio-economics, to break it down. You have a family that is a lower income earner, majority of the time these people tend to be stupid (mind you so are many higher income earners but just in different ways). You have a socio economic group that is stupid, these group has no money so they buy shit heaps (commodores etc) Because these people are stupid their thought process is shit house. Because their thought process is shit house they tend to rig log books, and do stupid crap. Because they do stupid crap in shit cars they tend to break stuff by crashing into it. It is a generalisation but it is a damn good one. P Platers will crash, you can do what you like about it but atleast think about the laws that are being enacted. Banning little Johnny from a 1.4 TSI Golf but letting him drive an R32 just shows how poorly thoughtout these rules are. If the exempt list has changed then tell the Transport department to fix their crap up. TL:DR? Laws are shit, Drivers are shit, Police are shit Everyone is shit  When i referred to 4 cyl's i generalised i would want to see limitations, maximum killerwasps, maximum literage etc, why is this ludicrous, its only for 3 years, tell me why do young inexperienced drivers need to have such raw power? If i had the time and maybe i will sift through the stats over an extended period as time permits, but I'll bet a left nut that the majority of fatals/major injurious incidents occurring for P-plate or say the Under 25 bracket, are vehicles of a range of high kilowatts (4 and 6 Cyl), P-plate legal vehicles but still in the high "performance" range that you speak of. Speaking from experience, i have seen more of these type of accidents in these type of cars, than say a suzi Swift or Barina etc. Why because these higher end P=plate legal cars still have just as much power and the "MAJORITY" of youguns can't handle it. XR6"s, SV6"s, V6, Straight 6 are lethal pieces of machinery, they are capable of being driven out of control easier than a low powered 4 cyl. So why not put these 4cyl restrictions in place, for 3 years, they drive around not worried about the power, how it looks becuase everyone is in the same boat, but concentrate on the things you have discussed, better driving skills. In my patrols i see tat P-platers tend to push the envelope of speedmore often than the older drivers (eg. drive at 5-7k's over the speed limit constantly). why is it so hard for young drivers to sit at the desingated limit? There has been arguments over driver training skills, handling skills etc, and i agree that they sound good, but ther trouble is there is a select few that will use these skills to boost their ego and think they are a WRC champion, thus completely negativing the reason for the training. I further beleive that the age of licences should be increased, why do they need a licence at 16? they are still very immature (Mahjority not all), why not rasie the age to 19 or 20 to allow for a bit of growing up and a mature outlook in life (Cough). Thuere is no quick fix, but at least the government started something to try and save the lives of the youth, it was interesting to note (off topic here) when XXXXGold rasied the isue of fatalities dropping in two periods over the last 12 years, one was when speed cameras came out and the other time was when covert speed cameras came out, the government put something out there to try and drop the fatal rate and it worked. I'm curious to see if the amount of persons under 25 years who died or were invovled in major traffic inccidents dropped at the inception of the the vehicle limitations. I'll have a look or someone mioght know, if it did then it worked, if it still has then it still works, no law keeps everyone happy but if they work then they stay. |
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93vrcommo
Post #372
QUOTE (Espress @ Mar 28 2011, 08:48 PM) If we didn't fight and argue against silly laws the Americans would still have a ban on alcohol. Lets face it, the laws are dead wrong. They need to either be removed all together or refined so that they are actually effective. If your going to be all nanny state at least implement a power to weight rule or something similar instead of blanket ruling v8 and turbos. i will have to completely agree, rock on brother |
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93vrcommo
Post #373
QUOTE (B Unit @ Mar 28 2011, 09:17 PM) Totally. But remember back when we all drove around in turbo charged big block V8's when we were 17? Those were the days  Power:Weight sound great in theory, but how do you govern it? Let's say you pull an S13 over, is it stock or 400hp? How is a cop to know? They wanted a quick solution so they ran with what they have now. Love it or hate it (haven't read the whole thread, but can't imagine anyone hating the laws ) they are there to stay. No amount of whinging on an internet forum is going to change anything, especially when we still see in the news young kids wrapping commodores around poles and killing the occupants.yes thats true, you do still hear of p platers wrapping cars around trees and into telephone posts but if i remember correctly cops are supposed to be the responsible drivers but they ran an intersection and either hospitalised or killed someone driving because they were speeding and ran an intersection, so think of that |
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93vrcommo
Post #374
QUOTE (Ralli @ Mar 29 2011, 10:33 AM) I realise this, I was just stating a fact ... urgh ! Well Said, and so so true ..... TBH, I think young kids should drive similar cars to what we did , no ABS, no power steering and no air con ... i have to completely agree with this, my first car was a xe falcon, no power steering, no air bags, nothing fancy |
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B Unit
Post #375
QUOTE (93vrcommo @ Mar 29 2011, 03:31 PM) yes thats true, you do still hear of p platers wrapping cars around trees and into telephone posts but if i remember correctly cops are supposed to be the responsible drivers but they ran an intersection and either hospitalised or killed someone driving because they were speeding and ran an intersection, so think of that I'm certainly not going to argue that there are still plenty of shit drivers on the road in all professions. Nor would I argue Evadeds points that there are flaws in the current system, but like it's been said, they needed a quick fix so they went with a blanket approach. I would have to do some investigation, but pretty sure the improvement on the road toll figures shows that it has worked to some degree. I for one would love to see better driver training. I was fortunate enough to be put through a defensive driver training course many years ago by an employer. It was certainly an eye opener, and to be honest, fun. Evaded mentions getting CAMS licences and joining clubs and racing on tracks, the most brilliant idea of all. I often say to P platers, get a 4wd for a daily and go bush bashing on weekends with mates (heaps of fun) and buy a cheap track only pig and go to Archy and QR. |
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boost bogan
Post #376
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Ralli
Post #377
QUOTE (Evaded Motorsport @ Mar 29 2011, 11:16 AM) <snip> TL:DR? Laws are shit, Drivers are shit, Police are shit Everyone is shit TL:DR indeed .. holy fuck ...  QUOTE (boost bogan @ Mar 29 2011, 04:34 PM) there is no NEED for a high powered car on your p's, only a want. ^^ THIS You guys only want something that you can't have, hence why you keep bitching about it |
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YrocLeumas
Post #378
QUOTE (boost bogan @ Mar 29 2011, 04:34 PM) ) there is no NEED for a high powered car on your p's, only a want.I really really cant stand this line of argument. It's easy to see where you're coming from, but in reality nobody ever needs a high powered car, or food which tastes any better than acceptable, or any other exaggerated analogy I cant be bothered to come up with. You know what I mean? I agree with what everyone says about the young driver mental development and the restrictions are definately better than not having them but certainly it should be based on power to weight as the main factor rather than number of cylinders or turbo or whathaveyou. And just to top it all off does anyone know the legality on aftermarket ecus/remapping stock ecus in regards to requiring engineers approval? I couldn't find what I was trying to on the stupid ridiculously old QLD code of practice thing. Yet another opinion to fall into the sea of who cares get over it? |
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DAL32
Post #379
QUOTE (Evaded Motorsport @ Mar 29 2011, 11:16 AM) TL:DR? I'm glad I was born before 1990. My first car was as much of a deathtrap as any. 1.2L, 33kw, drove like a turd. My mate had an auto EFI 202 VK, made it look like my Barina was standing still. But I got my own back when I bought my super powerful Mirage of death and took the Bommodore down. |
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mark1414
Post #380
QUOTE (YrocLeumas @ Mar 29 2011, 08:43 PM) I really really cant stand this line of argument. It's easy to see where you're coming from, but in reality nobody ever needs a high powered car, or food which tastes any better than acceptable, or any other exaggerated analogy I cant be bothered to come up with. You know what I mean? I agree with what everyone says about the young driver mental development and the restrictions are definately better than not having them but certainly it should be based on power to weight as the main factor rather than number of cylinders or turbo or whathaveyou. And just to top it all off does anyone know the legality on aftermarket ecus/remapping stock ecus in regards to requiring engineers approval? I couldn't find what I was trying to on the stupid ridiculously old QLD code of practice thing. Yet another opinion to fall into the sea of who cares get over it? Dont think that an ECU would be illegal under the P plate laws, although to get the ECU legally mod plated would cost a fair bit. AFAIK you have to get emission tests done, I seriously doubt any cops of DOT workers would pick up on it TBH. I have even seen people put aftermarket ECU's in the stock ECU casing. |
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176OES
Post #381
QUOTE (Evaded Motorsport @ Mar 29 2011, 11:16 AM) ...epic snip... Couldnt help but agree with the vast majority of that QUOTE (HP Plod @ Mar 29 2011, 01:55 PM) When i referred to 4 cyl's i generalised i would want to see limitations, maximum killerwasps, maximum literage etc, why is this ludicrous, its only for 3 years, tell me why do young inexperienced drivers need to have such raw power? If i had the time and maybe i will sift through the stats over an extended period as time permits, but I'll bet a left nut that the majority of fatals/major injurious incidents occurring for P-plate or say the Under 25 bracket, are vehicles of a range of high kilowatts (4 and 6 Cyl), P-plate legal vehicles but still in the high "performance" range that you speak of. Speaking from experience, i have seen more of these type of accidents in these type of cars, than say a suzi Swift or Barina etc. Why because these higher end P=plate legal cars still have just as much power and the "MAJORITY" of youguns can't handle it. XR6"s, SV6"s, V6, Straight 6 are lethal pieces of machinery, they are capable of being driven out of control easier than a low powered 4 cyl. The vehicle is an inanimate object.... its the driver that makes it dangerous. Regardless of what engine is in a vehicle, its no more of a risk than whatever may be parked next to it in the hands of someone who has no clue about what they are controlling. QUOTE (HP Plod @ Mar 29 2011, 01:55 PM) So why not put these 4cyl restrictions in place, for 3 years, they drive around not worried about the power, how it looks becuase everyone is in the same boat, but concentrate on the things you have discussed, better driving skills. In my patrols i see tat P-platers tend to push the envelope of speedmore often than the older drivers (eg. drive at 5-7k's over the speed limit constantly). why is it so hard for young drivers to sit at the desingated limit? Its not just young drivers, its a wide majority I see. And its because in a lot of open road situations the speed limits are just too slow (suburban 50kph zones are a different story). We have a system in place where any idiot can get a license with the most basic of training and then stupidly conservative limits are put in place to cater for the lowest common denominator. If anything, I would argue that driving at 100kph over distances is more dangerous than driving at a slightly higher speed which is still appropriate to the conditions (e.g. 120kph if conditions allow)... at 120kph I am more alert, whereas at 100kph the same section of road can be mind numbing, leading to driver distraction and mental fatigue. QUOTE (HP Plod @ Mar 29 2011, 01:55 PM) There has been arguments over driver training skills, handling skills etc, and i agree that they sound good, but ther trouble is there is a select few that will use these skills to boost their ego and think they are a WRC champion, thus completely negativing the reason for the training. I further beleive that the age of licences should be increased, why do they need a licence at 16? they are still very immature (Mahjority not all), why not rasie the age to 19 or 20 to allow for a bit of growing up and a mature outlook in life (Cough). I have a huge problem with the whole backward perspective of "OMG - Driver training will make people more dangerous" (and I'm speaking in general here, regardless of whether you subscribe to that train of thought or not). To sit there and believe that it is right to deny the majority the opportunity to be properly educated in order to make the roads a safer place for themselves for fear of a retard minority (which will always be there, whether they are trained or not) is in my opinion, stupidity of the highest order. QUOTE (HP Plod @ Mar 29 2011, 01:55 PM) Thuere is no quick fix, but at least the government started something to try and save the lives of the youth, it was interesting to note (off topic here) when XXXXGold rasied the isue of fatalities dropping in two periods over the last 12 years, one was when speed cameras came out and the other time was when covert speed cameras came out, the government put something out there to try and drop the fatal rate and it worked. I'm curious to see if the amount of persons under 25 years who died or were invovled in major traffic inccidents dropped at the inception of the the vehicle limitations. I'll have a look or someone mioght know, if it did then it worked, if it still has then it still works, no law keeps everyone happy but if they work then they stay. I would think that if every driver were taught defensive driving (incl. how to control a vehicle in an emergency situation) to get their license, along with periodical re-testing, and if vehicles were put under a mandatory roadworthy scheme each few years to help keep some of the death traps off our roads, it would do a lot more for road tolls than sticking a camera operated cash register next to the road ever will. The problem with these solutions is they cost money, whereas cameras make money. So much road toll focus is placed on speeding, when in fact its only a portion of it... so why is there very little effort or resources put in place to help reduce the tolls as a bigger picture through proper driver training? (again, refer statement about these solutions costing money - govt at the end of the day is just a business... its all about the balance sheet) |
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HP Plod
Post #382
QUOTE (176OES @ Mar 30 2011, 01:15 AM) Couldnt help but agree with the vast majority of that
The vehicle is an inanimate object.... its the driver that makes it dangerous. Regardless of what engine is in a vehicle, its no more of a risk than whatever may be parked next to it in the hands of someone who has no clue about what they are controlling. Exactly guns don't kill people, people kill people, however reduce the caliber of the gun and it still may kill people, but the mortality rate is less, just like driving a 4 cyl reduces the chance of an accident than a V8 Its not just young drivers, its a wide majority I see. And its because in a lot of open road situations the speed limits are just too slow (suburban 50kph zones are a different story). We have a system in place where any idiot can get a license with the most basic of training and then stupidly conservative limits are put in place to cater for the lowest common denominator. If anything, I would argue that driving at 100kph over distances is more dangerous than driving at a slightly higher speed which is still appropriate to the conditions (e.g. 120kph if conditions allow)... at 120kph I am more alert, whereas at 100kph the same section of road can be mind numbing, leading to driver distraction and mental fatigue. Ok increase the speed to 120 on the highway? it then becomes the normal speed you do just like 100 is now, and the complacency sneaks in, you're only more alert doing these speeds at the moment for the fear of being caught (just speculating there)[ I have a huge problem with the whole backward perspective of "OMG - Driver training will make people more dangerous" (and I'm speaking in general here, regardless of whether you subscribe to that train of thought or not). To sit there and believe that it is right to deny the majority the opportunity to be properly educated in order to make the roads a safer place for themselves for fear of a retard minority (which will always be there, whether they are trained or not) is in my opinion, stupidity of the highest order. I'm not a blanket driver training won't work, I'm allduing to the fact that there are the minority that will see it as the brovado mojo they need, I totally agree to stick kids on skid pans and teach them to control a vehicle, but how do you control them doing 180 plus down a suburban street, driver training won't do this, trying to reduce the vehicles from doing this may.[ I would think that if every driver were taught defensive driving (incl. how to control a vehicle in an emergency situation) to get their license, along with periodical re-testing, and if vehicles were put under a mandatory roadworthy scheme each few years to help keep some of the death traps off our roads, it would do a lot more for road tolls than sticking a camera operated cash register next to the road ever will. The problem with these solutions is they cost money, whereas cameras make money. So much road toll focus is placed on speeding, when in fact its only a portion of it... so why is there very little effort or resources put in place to help reduce the tolls as a bigger picture through proper driver training? (again, refer statement about these solutions costing money - govt at the end of the day is just a business... its all about the balance sheet) the emphasis of speed with respect to road toll is as you said only a portion of it, there are many other programs in place, they are all working together to try and i stress try becuase sometimes it feels like we are failing, and reduce the road toll. I have said it in other threads, if we don't have those who are wiling to give to the govenrment on a voluinatry basis (i.e. Revenue for idiocy), then we will get stung with our taxes, true? So let those give, and keep your tax dollars low |
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Evaded Motorsport
Post #383
QUOTE (HP Plod @ Mar 29 2011, 01:55 PM) When i referred to 4 cyl's i generalised i would want to see limitations, maximum killerwasps, maximum literage etc, why is this ludicrous, its only for 3 years, tell me why do young inexperienced drivers need to have such raw power? If i had the time and maybe i will sift through the stats over an extended period as time permits, but I'll bet a left nut that the majority of fatals/major injurious incidents occurring for P-plate or say the Under 25 bracket, are vehicles of a range of high kilowatts (4 and 6 Cyl), P-plate legal vehicles but still in the high "performance" range that you speak of. Speaking from experience, i have seen more of these type of accidents in these type of cars, than say a suzi Swift or Barina etc. Why because these higher end P=plate legal cars still have just as much power and the "MAJORITY" of youguns can't handle it. XR6"s, SV6"s, V6, Straight 6 are lethal pieces of machinery, they are capable of being driven out of control easier than a low powered 4 cyl. So why not put these 4cyl restrictions in place, for 3 years, they drive around not worried about the power, how it looks becuase everyone is in the same boat, but concentrate on the things you have discussed, better driving skills. In my patrols i see tat P-platers tend to push the envelope of speedmore often than the older drivers (eg. drive at 5-7k's over the speed limit constantly). why is it so hard for young drivers to sit at the desingated limit? There has been arguments over driver training skills, handling skills etc, and i agree that they sound good, but ther trouble is there is a select few that will use these skills to boost their ego and think they are a WRC champion, thus completely negativing the reason for the training. I further beleive that the age of licences should be increased, why do they need a licence at 16? they are still very immature (Mahjority not all), why not rasie the age to 19 or 20 to allow for a bit of growing up and a mature outlook in life (Cough). Thuere is no quick fix, but at least the government started something to try and save the lives of the youth, it was interesting to note (off topic here) when XXXXGold rasied the isue of fatalities dropping in two periods over the last 12 years, one was when speed cameras came out and the other time was when covert speed cameras came out, the government put something out there to try and drop the fatal rate and it worked. I'm curious to see if the amount of persons under 25 years who died or were invovled in major traffic inccidents dropped at the inception of the the vehicle limitations. I'll have a look or someone mioght know, if it did then it worked, if it still has then it still works, no law keeps everyone happy but if they work then they stay. I agree with a power to weight ratio restriction. It negates the need for maximum kw, although it basically removes the possibilty of anyone driving anything with too much power, maximum capacity restrictions won't work with some of the older diesels around. Power to weight would have to be the most logical choice. The no turbo/supercharger rule is a joke, with so many modern cars moving to these types of fuel saving initiatives unless the gumbyment gets off its backside and actually updates its list of exempted vehicles then the current legislation is ridiculous. Although at heart I truly support Darwin's theory. Let them do what they like it should just remove the weak from the gene pool. Although all the good two shoes will worry about the parent's etc etc. The SV6 and XR6 are barely high performance, My 1.9 TDI is .3 of a second slower down the 1/4 than these (performance cars). To top it off they tend to have a reasonable level of safety equipment built into them. But every Tom, Jeff, Bazza with their Shazza, Lozza and whatever other female has just purchased their 6 Cylinder family car. Why shouldn't their child be able to drive it if need be. Practicality wise it just won't work. There is no point in even considering it. To top it off kids will do stupid shit in no matter what they drive, it is a part of growing up. Honestly the car I treated best was my quickest car I owned while on my P's. It weighed around the 750kg region and made 190ish hp at the wheels. Some of the shit I did in my old 1984 Honda Civic Wagon would just make you shake your head but it was a part of growing up. You learn from the things that you do, I always did my stupid crap away from the general population. You need to instill skills in these people and make them aware of their limitations, trying to fight natural behaviour is like trying to bash your way through a brick wall with your skull. It is pointless. I would hazard a guess you would see more of those injuries because of the type of people who purchase those respective cars. You are battling a mind frame (which was the majority of the training I was speaking about). At the end of the day you are not going to change the mind set of young teenagers, males and it seems females are getting worse and worse as well. Mary Jane may be happy driving around in something economical so they buy a Suzuki Swift, they aren't going anywhere quickly. Jason who wants to go quickly will buy whatever he can. even under your proposed laws he could purchase a twincam corolla which isn't too much slower than a V6 VN. He is still going to drive it at ten tenths everywhere. Honestly I see the opposite, I tend to see a fair portion of both parties pushing the speeding envelope. Honestly those P Platers that are speeding are going to be the people that are speeding on their open's as well. Some may slow down eventually but most won't. Most P Platers seem fairly good, it tends to be tradies and down right bogans that I tend to see driving like the biggest dickheads like the guy in the shitbox focus yesterday with plates along the lines of 465 HWP. Between 1992 and 2002 they had a 30% drop in P Plate fatalities (before restrictions were put in place) Since that time I do not believe their has been a vast decrease in fatalities. Most of these I would hazard a guess would of come from P platers driving safer vehicles no matter what the size. With respect to licensing, I would prefer to see the opposite, I would love to see kids getting their L's at 15 and then 200 hours of supervised training. I know I whinged about how shit supervisors are but at the end of the day, the more time spent on the road the better. Making it later won't work. Kids finish school at 17 and Australia is a big country with a below average Public Transport system. To give you an idea it took my 2 hours to attend uni by public transport the same drive was 45 minutes. It was the same deal with work. Someone who can't drive is effectively useless to a large majority of employers. Once again it just isn't practical. Oh god I agree with 176OES. I would kill for the M1 to be 140 (I'd be happy at 200 but I doubt that would get through ) between Beenleigh and the Gold Coast, there is no reason it can't be. If you set a reasonable speed limit then you wouldn't have people feeling the need to break the limit. Having said that of those people that do (there will of course be some) you can just fine them and not be so leniant on them.QUOTE I'm not a blanket driver training won't work, I'm allduing to the fact that there are the minority that will see it as the brovado mojo they need, I totally agree to stick kids on skid pans and teach them to control a vehicle, but how do you control them doing 180 plus down a suburban street, driver training won't do this, trying to reduce the vehicles from doing this may. This comes down to vehicle dynamics but a vast majority of those vehicles that can do 180km/h down a suburban street can handle and brake far better than those vehicles that would struggle to do 120-140 down a suburban street. Having said that anyone who did this I would take their car from them and put them in Jail. I'm not too old to forget the stupid crap I did but never in Suburban areas at stupid speeds like that. Unfortunately it is a part of human nature to forget the wrong doings of ourselves. There was a study done that shows that people pretty much ignored their own short comings. I tend to be fairly concsious of them and I know I have done some stupid shit, I know I am impatient etc etc. However it seems alot of older people tend to have forgotten what they were like growing up. In the greater scheme of things I support some restrictions at the other end of the scale training and letting people grow up are also important. A mixture of these two things in an appropriate balance is the only real solution. |
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Frank-The-Tank
Post #384
This law is really stupid. Yes they care about saftey for young drivers, everybody understands that I myself am a p plater for another 11 months sadly |
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B Unit
Post #385
QUOTE (Frank-The-Tank @ Mar 30 2011, 11:42 AM) This law is really stupid. Yes they care about saftey for young drivers, everybody understands that I myself am a p plater for another 11 months sadly  But Put it this way you cant drive say a r32 gts-t Rb20det But you can drive a manual xr6 new models, Or say a v35 skyline Which is a hell lot quickerI reall think that is rediculous, they need to make a defence driving course compulsary or something to make saftey and stuff more clear to p platers I also think if you know your car limits and know its power and what not your gunna be less likely to do something stupid.. And if you kill yourself doing something stupid Then thats your problem for not knowing how to control your own car. I do belive the whole only 1 passenger after 11 is a good idea tho. I'm happy to see the deadshits wipe themselves out on power poles when they are in the car alone, but it generally happens when they have friends in the car, or they hit another innocent person in another car. |
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