Drift - Pwer Vs Torque  

NISMOgemini
  • NISMOgemini
  • Technical Members own j00!!
  • Member No.: 1,200
  • Joined: 13-January 03
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  • From: Australia
Post #1 post 28th August 2006 - 01:10 AM
what woudl be prefered for a drift car out of curiosity

for example

what woudl be best.. an sr20 or somehtign with a higher torque output but lower lower kw output


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clutch-monkey
Post #2

i prefer torque...

Granthem
Post #3

guess it really suits the track ur on.... but most seem to be going for good power

20VGT
Post #4

torque is certainly beneficial when drifting........however power certainly has something to do with it also.

For example, the comparison of CA18 and SR20 engines........it is commonly known that the CA18 is lacking in torque when compared to the SR20 variant. I Run a CA18 and am currently on a "run-in" tune and therefore i have low power output. These things combined makes it quite abit more difficult to maintain a slide or select the next gear....but it is certainly fun trying.

I personally feel it heavily depends on how competitive you want to be......for example, someone competeing in DA with a stock standard NA 4age will have alot of trouble and will have to work alot harder to get decent placings than most other drivers, simply due to thier vehicle/engine choice.

The way i figure it, if you don't plan on going for a National title.....whats the point of having massive amounts of power.......it is just as fun drifting on 200-250rwhp in a CA18det than it is in a 250-300rwhp SR20

bstlvr
Post #5

its all fun ;p

Innocent_Commuter
Post #6

Would have to lean strongly towards torque. Having a real peaky power delivery is not always the best, idealy you want to get the rear tyres spinning early on (or as soon as possible). I would have thought it provides better response so increased control of the slide (please correct me if im not quite right).

nil8ter
Post #7

QUOTE
Would have to lean strongly towards torque. Having a real peaky power delivery is not always the best, idealy you want to get the rear tyres spinning early on (or as soon as possible). I would have thought it provides better response so increased control of the slide (please correct me if im not quite right).


would have to agree

NISMOgemini
Post #8

quality input, cheers everyone:)

mr bmw
Post #9

All you need is torque, horsepower is only there to back up the lack of torque. the more torque you have the less horspower you need. as your torque dies, your horsepower is there to take over. its really benificial to have low end torque as so it is not hard to get those tyres frying. its the torque that throws you back in your seat.

kw sells cars, torque drives the cars.

MagicMike
Post #10

Horsepower is a function of torque is it not? Meaning to calculate horsepower, torque must be known? I view both units as the ability of the engine to do 'work'... Depends on when in the rev range you want the majority of work to be done and then tune accordingly...

MIT20
Post #11

i duno about that^^^ cos my 4x4 has no hp but a shit load of torque... plus diesel is more torquey as well...

IRB20
Post #12

random note smile.gif cause im bored and dont really wanna answer the drift question.

Rally cars are limited on the amount of hp they can have so there main concertration is getting as much torque as possible which is pretty cool smile.gif

P.S. my drift car will have the pwr and torque.... just nothing until boost tongue.gif

DRF74
Post #13

You need an equal balance between HP and Tourue!
Tourque is what u need to initiate the drift and it is what u need through tight sections, but if u have a car with a huge amount of tourque and no outright power u will have difficulty to maintain the drift on longer corners and bigger link sections!
Therefore you need a balance u need a reasonable level of tourque as well as a resonable level or hp which will have to relate to the weight of your car!
There is always a trade off, the more power you want the less tourque you will get and the more tourque you want the less outright power you will achieve!
Therefore finding a balance between the 2 is desirable for a drift setup!

JuStDaVe
Post #14

john cain the man

MagicMike
Post #15

A good read: note that the car in question is a ttzed but I mainly post this for the explainations of torque and power and how they relate to each other smile.gif

There are several things that a dynochart will tell you about a vehicle's performance as well as where any problem may be. Horsepower and torque are two different ways of looking at the same thing, but they reveal characteristics of the powerplant that are unique to themselves. This is my interpretation of the information provided on a dyno chart based on my experience.
Horsepower: This is the measure of the engine's ability to perform work. This can be viewed as force per given time over distance.

Torque: This is the measure of instantaneous force the engine provides. This is what makes the wheels turn and it is direclt correlated to the push you feel on your back from the driver's seat. This is the 'fun factor' when it comes to driving a car.

Provided ample traction, a car with more torque is going to 'feel' faster than the same car with lesser torque, but it might not actually BE faster. "Faster" is a vague term that too loosely describes a car's performance character and we should use Fast and Quick. They have very different and almost opposite meaning.

A/F curve: This is a measure of what the mixture ratio of air to fuel is. There is a specific trend you should shoot for when it comes to A/F ratios, and it is directly dependent on the torque curve.

I'll start at torque.

Since torque is the instantaneous measure of force that the engine produces, you can imagine this unit as being the amount of energy released per given power stroke of the engine. The energy that is released in the chamber is directly correlated to the quantity of fuel that is oxidized by the air. The more air and fuel you can cram in there, the more power you will make. The torque curve effectively tells you how the engine is breathing.

Torque:




Since the engine is requiring more air as RPM increases and boost pressure only rises to a given point, we would expect that when the boost discontinues its rise, we should see a notable drop in torque. This point where the torque 'peaks' is actually where the turbos achieve their target boost pressure. The lower the RPM at which it achieves this peak, the less 'lag' your car is said to have.

Not all turbos have the same response, which is not the same as lag. Some turbos increase in boost pressure in a linear fashion and some do not. Some come in smooth and some come in hard. The response of the turbos are indicated by the slope of the torque curve. A very parabolically curved line shows a slow response, and a linear line to the top is a smooth response. You aren't going to get any better than a linear propagation of torque since the turbo's output is based on the changing rate of the engine RPM, which is linear-ly plotted on a dynochart. i.e. The closer to a linear rise in torque per RPM, the more drivable the car is going to be as power output is predictable. Slow response turbos are like driving a car with an on/off switch and are less desirable.

There is a basic law of fluids that dictates how much force is required to move a quantity of fluid through a vessel at a specific rate. As the quantity/velocity of fluid flow increases within a static volume, it requires more energy to move the fluid. Since the engine is moving more air out of the engine as RPM increases, but the exhaust components (specifically the manifolds) are not increasing their size, you are wasting more energy in trying to move the exhaust out of the engine. This energy is wasted in the form of heat, but its source is the rotation of the engine. i.e., it takes increasingly more power to move more air out of the engine through the exhaust tract as engine RPM increases. This effect is felt by the engine over its entire range of RPM, but it is most notable after the torque peak. The quicker the torque falls from its peak, the more you are seeing the effects of backpressure on the engine. You will note that Z's equipped with Greg D's inconel tubular manifolds have notably less torque drop after the peak than other similarly equipped Z's with stock manifolds. Although in every case with a turbo you are going to have a distinct torque peak and fall, the less your torque falls off after the peak, the more power you are going to make.

Seemingly less people want to know what the 'torque number' was for a car and desire to know first what the horsepower is. The peak torque achieved is actually more important IMHO than horsepower as it gives you a quantitative value of how much 'bang' you got going on in the chamber. The higher the peak torque, the better the engine is at being a pump.


Air/Fuel Ratio
The A/F plot on a dynochart has two key trends you should be looking for.




The A/F curve should be almost the opposite of the torque curve. i.e., as torque is increasing, the A/F should be decreasing (richer). At the point where you achieve your boost target, your A/F should at your target and it should stay at your target until redline - a little dip at the 6500RPM mark is good and safe. The temperature of the burn in the chamber is directly related to the amount of air and fuel in the cylinder as well as the air/fuel ratio. A leaner (less fuel) mixture is going to burn hotter, which will generate more power, but at the risk of thermal meltdown if the mixture is not rich enough.


Ideally, you want the A/F to drop as torque increases to its peak and at torque peak for a street car with pump fuel you are looking for anywhere between 10.5:1 to 11.5:1 dependent on your tuner or ECU programmer. For race fuel setups, 12:1 should be your limit.

Horsepower:
This is what everyone wants to know first, but its actually the leftovers when it comes down to it. If you have a torque curve and A/F trend of which I have explained above, your horsepower output is going to be just as desirable. During tuning sessions, I dont even care to see horsepower - it is simply an 'after the fact' figure to the process. Everybody wants to have high horsepower because they know that's the unit they'll be asked for, but, I can give you high horsepower that is completely useless, but it sounds impressive.

The horsepower can have independent traits from the torque curve. i.e., the torque can be falling, but the horsepower is still rising. This is a small fluke in representing power as it can be misleading to most. Horsepower is a function of torque and RPM. You can have less torque, but be actually producing more horsepower with a well-configured setup. Since you are not going to keep the torque from falling after your boost peak, your only hope is to simply slow its fall. If you can keep the torque from falling too quickly, your horsepower will not suffer and you will have a better 'powerband'.

You will note the characteristic of the horsepower curve between 0RPM and 5252RPM is very similar to that of the torque curve. Anytime the torque is increasing, so is the HP. Anytime the torque is decreasing on this interval, the HP will also decrease. Since we have already covered the torque curve and what you are looking for, the horsepower curve is really only usable after the 5252RPM point.

Things to look for on a horsepower curve




The "Powerband" is a somewhat vague term that is used to describe the range of engine RPM at which the engine is producing a similar amount of power. Typically when the torque peaks, your horsepower will tend to level off from its ascent and stay pretty flat and level until a later RPM. The higher up into the RPM range you can maintain that horsepower, the bigger the 'powerband' is said to be. The horsepower will not stay at that level forever as exhaust backpressure catches up and the torque will take another plunge and the horsepower goes down the tube with it. Obviously you aren't going to be producing an identical, to the 0.1HP variation amount of power over a range of RPM, but there are two points of distinction of the band.

Horsepower peak: I mention this at the very last for a very good reason - it is the least important defining value you could get when it comes down to making any determination on how an engine performs. It only defines one specific condition of the engine and, by itself, is missing a critical piece of information; engine RPM. Asking for the horsepower figure of a car is like being blind in an art gallery, but some people just dont know of the water they swim in. Consider it a conversation piece - that's about all it is worth.

Here's a pretty nice chart:
Chris Damato's 2530 powered TT with Greg D. Manifolds

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