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ONEiGHTY
  • ONEiGHTY
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  • Joined: 4-October 04
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  • From: Darwin
Post #1 post 9th August 2005 - 02:27 PM
This is taken off another forum. i found it quite interesting and thought it's worth sharing.


Secrets of speed cameras revealed
Ellen Whinnett
04aug05

MOBILE speed camera readings can be distorted by metal signs, fences, walls and even Australia Post letter boxes, according to a secret police document.

The potential flaws in the controversial cameras -- which took $104 million in speeding fines from Victorian motorists last year -- are detailed in a confidential police rule book.
The 50-page Speed Camera Policy and Operations Manual also identifies a major operational weakness in the cameras, which monitor multi-lane roads.

But for road safety reasons the Herald Sun has chosen not to give details of this gap.

Police have fought to keep the April 2004 manual a secret.

However a copy obtained by the Herald Sun shows:

CAMERAS are not to be set up on bends.

OPERATORS must not camouflage or disguise the cameras in a way that could lead to a public perception of "sly operations".

CAMERAS can be used on a downhill road only if the road has a significant history of speed-related accidents.

TOLERANCE levels, where motorists can travel over the speed limit without being fined, are flexible.

POLICE book so many people to reinforce the message that it is not worth the risk to speed.

THE locations of fixed speed cameras are chosen to maximise the number of people who can be caught speeding.

CAMERAS must not be set up within 200m of a change to the speed zone.

CAMERAS can be used within 200m of a change to the zone in a children's crossing area or a school zone with prior approval of senior police.

Former speed camera operator Graeme Marr will use a court hearing in Melbourne today to highlight his concerns about radar beams bouncing off reflective objects and giving false readings.

Mr Marr will tell the court that motorists had lost their licences because of wrongly issued speeding fines.

Police Minister Tim Holding said processes were in place to ensure Victorian motorists were not unfairly fined or prosecuted.

"Before taking photographs, operators must ensure there are no reflective objects or surfaces in the camera beam," he said.

"The simple presence of a reflective object or surface within the speed camera photograph itself does not render the camera's reading incorrect."

Mr Holding said that in coming months the Government would release the existing speed camera criteria.

Transport Accident Commission figures show that 699,638 speeding offences were caught on camera last financial year, generating $104 million for the State Government.

The manual shows that booking a large number of people is a key part in the speed camera program.

"(The philosophy) . . . aims to create a broad community perception through general and specific deterrents that the chance of detection is so high that speeding is not worth the risk," the policy states.

Operators are told they must not hide cameras.

"To maintain community confidence in the speed camera initiative, it is important for the operational use of the devices to be seen as fair and reasonable," the policy states.

"Under no circumstances are speed camera vehicles, tripods or flash units to be disguised by signs, logos, breakdown of vehicle (eg: boot open or spare wheel jack visible, etc,), tree branches, lamp posts, dust bins or any other means that would generate public perceptions of sly operations."

The State Opposition has taken the case to the Victorian Civil and Administrative Tribunal, arguing police should have released the protocols under Freedom of Information laws.

The document shows that specific restrictions are placed on the mobile speed cameras to address problems with reflective objects corrupting speed readings.

The rule book states cameras should not be set up on or near an overpass, or facing an elevated adjacent road that may carry traffic past the extended speed camera radar beam.

Other sources of reflection are pole-mounted electricity supply transformers, metal signs such as house-for-sale or auction signs and Armco road barriers.

Metal bus stop shelters, public telephone booths, Australia Post letter-boxes, sheet metal garage doors, fences, factory walls and closely spaced iron picket fences are all listed as possible reflectors capable of distorting speed readings.

The document also confirms widespread speculation that tolerance levels are a moveable figure.

Tolerance levels are set by law at 2km/h for fixed cameras and 3km/h for mobile cameras.

But the limit at which police started issuing tickets has been a secret.

The policy manual states threshold speeds will be chosen depending on the number of complaints about speeding and "ongoing evaluation of road trauma levels".
[I]

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ONEiGHTY
Post #2

dry.gif dodgy

vh-holden
Post #3

i only read the first few paragraphs before my goldfish mind switched off.

i saw some scans of some of the guidelines last year on another forum. the thing that jumped out at me was that they were only recommended, and not essential guidelines

RxRaver
Post #4

They had that on the news as well.

I got fucking jipped the other day, i was going inbound to the city, in the right hand lane an i seen the speed camera on Baggot road out-bound, see everybody's brake lights come on, so i slowed to under the limit, as i do, and this this bloody little hatch, number plate - RJS-898 sped past me and i got flashed as it was on the outer side of me, so if i get a fucking ticket, i have the recorded time, date, rego and colour of the car so i hope I'll manage to prove my innocence. I told everyone what happend 10mins after it happend so i have witnesness too, hope i dont get it, court will suck.

r32cruising
Post #5

Not a bad read

R31gtsr
Post #6

youl befine dan

TheHeat
Post #7

*yawn*......old news. We do it differently up here...and dont mind putting them out in public to show where they are and tell people as well....we are much nicer up in the NT biggrin.gif

QTRMILE
Post #8

Yep, head to Adelaide...

Speed cameras are about the size of a cigarette packet and are hidden on the bumper of unmarked cars.
They just park up on the side of the road with all the other cars and whammo.. here comes a nice big ticket! (MUCH more expensive than here too...)

Oh, and before you say it, the driver of a Police car captured on camera still gets the sent the ticket as well. If you can't justify why you were exceeding the limit you pay the fine. Simple as that.

MAD285
Post #9

QUOTE(TheHeat @ Aug 9 2005, 07:30 PM)
*yawn*......old news. We do it differently up here...and dont mind putting them out in public to show where they are and tell people as well....we are much nicer up in the NT  biggrin.gif
[right][snapback]5277890[/snapback][/right]


Old mate in the van on the Stuart Highway at 20:30hrs on Sat night was in stealth mode, parked up behind a very bushy bush. Only reason I saw it was old mate in front of me got the flash for cash, all I saw was the "bush" light up, scared the crap outta me, didnt know what the hell was going on !! rant2.gif
I saw a few more "flashes" in my rearview from inbound traffic as well, looks like he was making a killin' in that spot.;

Nawdy
Post #10

I think a lot of drivers up here don't realise how good we have it compared to the southern states

vh-holden
Post #11

the article talks about mobile speed cameras

what are they exactly

TheHeat
Post #12

'In stealth mode'.......how do you hide a 2.5 Ton van painted white and covered in reflective tape...I mean, really! Plus drivers get told which roads they are on in the 24 hour period. If you stay below the limit you have nothing to fear.

vh-holden
Post #13

QUOTE(TheHeat @ Aug 9 2005, 09:11 PM)
If you stay below the limit you have nothing to fear.
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but what if the cameras do turn out to be flawed as the article suggests tongue.gif

TheHeat
Post #14

No such beast Adam...when they refer to mobile cameras they mean cameras that can be moved about the place in vans/cars etc...'portable' cameras would be more correct terminology. The ones used up here are a seperate camera attached to a laser device identicle to the hand held laser devices used on the side of the road. This coupled to a computer captures the image and speed simultaneously.

Other types of cameras commonly used down south are 'fixed' cameras which are set up in a booth or housing on a particular stretch of road.

vh-holden
Post #15

thanks for the clarification mark.

how long till we have fixed ones here?

TheHeat
Post #16

No idea...we had them a few years ago but the heat and humidity proved them unsuccessful. A decision was made not to persist with them until new technology is explored. But whether or not they are reintroduced is a matter for Government

4g15
Post #17

I've seen teh speed cam van parked in the parking lot of the Former Shell servo next to Bagot maccas taking pictures. (at night, a bit hard to see and this would be considered as the next day and would'nt have been available in the paper until 5am when the paper run was due)

also the speed cam used to like hiding behing the Route 5 Bustop near karama gettho.

Outside near Kerry Palmo (Stuart Highway) in the dark parked behind the pandanas tree taking pictures inbound and I think the flash was actually on the other side of the road. DId'nt catch that one in time, normally see them... but even if they were a 2 ton van with reflective stickers, you cant see it behind a tree... But credit goes to NT Police as that is a pretty damn good place to hide a speed cam van....

Another one is behind the bush at the old air port gates near Darwin WHolesale ripoffs. taking pictures both directions.

not just talking about speed cam vans, Seen mobile speed gun commodores parked behind the tree near the muslim mosque on vandalin drive. A bit hard to see that one sometimes too. But have'nt been busted yet.

There are however a few places that it is in the open. On the median strip on Vandalin heading towards cas shops just after the big lee point rounda bout.

oN Bagot after the fly over

YOu should paint the van Blue/black/green (Something dark), that will catch everyone by surprise. Plus it would be harder to see at night, which would mean it'll be easier to hide behind trees and bus stops.

JazzarÐ
Post #18

I uste to hate cameras being behind trees, bushes, poles anything that made it alittle harder to see them but now it dosent bother me...if you get caught speeding dosent matter if the van was visable or not "you" were speeding.


"Pay up"

D16A8
Post #19

QUOTE(RxRaver @ Aug 9 2005, 04:06 PM)
They had that on the news as well.

I got fucking jipped the other day, i was going inbound to the city, in the right hand lane an i seen the speed camera on Baggot road out-bound, see everybody's brake lights come on, so i slowed to under the limit, as i do, and this this bloody little hatch, number plate - RJS-898 sped past me and i got flashed as it was on the outer side of me, so if i get a fucking ticket, i have the recorded time, date, rego and colour of the car so i hope I'll manage to prove my innocence. I told everyone what happend 10mins after it happend so i have witnesness too, hope i dont get it, court will suck.
[right][snapback]5277490[/snapback][/right]


LOL ahahaahahahaah thats so funny laugh.gif

ELLA
Post #20

Dunno how that is funny D16A8? Because Dan is worried he will get a ticket for something he didn't do? Or because someone is blatantly breaking the speed limit?

Seriously People Anybody having a whinge about anything to do with speed cameras needs a kick up the bum, If you do the crime you do the time or pay the fine.
Its like saying too many people are being caught murdering people so lets halve the size of the homicide squad.

The only time i think someone has the right to have the shits with speeding cameras is when they arent actually over the limit, Such as the example Rxraver showed and if that was ever to happen then it wouldnt be too hard to prove your innocence one would think.

And yes ive been done for speeding a shitload of times (id even put up a healthy sized bet as to the fact that ive paid out the most to our friendly government in fines out of everyone here) BUT not for one second will i whinge that the fines were unfair because i couldnt see the Van, or the coppers were hidden in the bushes then pulled me over.

PS: I havent been done for speeding more than twice in the last year, ive learnt my lesson and so should anyone who thinks its ok to break any law.

My 0.02c....

Luke.

trevor_the_grey
Post #21

i dont get poeple who whinge about hidden cameras. YOU ARE A BUNCH O' MORONS!!!

try this on for size; dont speed...

ONEiGHTY
Post #22

QUOTE(RxRaver @ Aug 9 2005, 04:06 PM)
They had that on the news as well.

I got fucking jipped the other day, i was going inbound to the city, in the right hand lane an i seen the speed camera on Baggot road out-bound, see everybody's brake lights come on, so i slowed to under the limit, as i do, and this this bloody little hatch, number plate - RJS-898 sped past me and i got flashed as it was on the outer side of me, so if i get a fucking ticket, i have the recorded time, date, rego and colour of the car so i hope I'll manage to prove my innocence. I told everyone what happend 10mins after it happend so i have witnesness too, hope i dont get it, court will suck.
[right][snapback]5277490[/snapback][/right]


yep, i have a similar experience driving back from palmo way. it was along the 80km/h zone along stuart highway around 11mile area. i was on the outside lane and just seen the camera, slowly slowly doing the speed limit but this older model white mercedes with d/south plates was too eager to overtake me. he sped up coming from behind me and then past me on the left lane and realised a little too late there was a speed camera right there and hit the brakes hard. i'd say he's prob doing just over 100km/h. if i get done for that i'm gonna contest over that !!

Nawdy
Post #23

There is one thing you really do need to remember here - if you do nothing wrong, you have nothing to worry about. I'll say it again - if you do nothing wrong, you have nothing to worry about.

However, you also have a right to contest a speeding fine for any reason you may have. The first post gives you some ideas that you can use if you decide to take that path. I also put some info in this post that may give you some ideas. If you feel you have been wrongly done by (let's face it, machines and their operators are not infallible), then you should be able to prove it. The one thing I hate about the speeding fine system is you are guilty until proven innocent (the exact opposite to the basic principle of law in our country), and the onus is you to prove your innocence (again, the exact opposite). At least here in the NT, the system plays fairer.

Also, plagiarized from another thread, this news story here:

Speed camera fines in doubt

EXCLUSIVE By STAVRO SOFIOS

August 10, 2005

EVERY fine issued by speed cameras could be invalid, after the Roads and Traffic Authority admitted yesterday it could not prove the authenticity of the pictures taken.

In a double blow to the RTA, The Daily Telegraph can also reveal that Sydney Harbour Tunnel cameras monitoring toll cheats have been switched off for at least three years – and no penalties handed out. The

revelation came as Sydney magistrate Lawrence Lawson threw out a speeding case after the RTA said it had no evidence that an image from a camera had not been doctored.

Mr Lawson had adjourned the case in June, giving the RTA eight weeks to produce an expert to prove pictures from a speed camera on Carlingford Rd, Epping, had not been altered after they were taken.

He said it was a matter of public interest and the RTA should be given time to back up its case.

But RTA lawyers yesterday told Hornsby Local Court they could not find an expert and the case was thrown out, with $3300 in legal costs awarded to the motorist, a man allegedly caught speeding through a school zone on November 18 last year.

Lawyer Dennis Miralis, who has won several high-profile cases against the RTA involving speeding motorists, said the case proved a public inquiry into speed cameras was desperately needed.

"The integrity of all speed camera offences has been thrown into serious doubt and it appears that the RTA is unable to prove any contested speed camera matter because of a lack of admissible evidence," Mr Miralis said.

The case revolved around the integrity of a mathematical MD5 algorithm published on each picture and used as a security measure to prove pictures have not been doctored after they have been taken.

Mr Miralis argued that the RTA had to prove the algorithm it used was accurate and could not be tampered with. He said: "It is our understanding that since speed cameras were introduced approximately 15 years ago on NSW roads, not one single speed camera photograph has been capable of proving an offence."

The NSW Law Society said the judgment could "open the doors" for other drivers caught by speed cameras to mount the same defence.

QUOTE(ELLA @ Aug 10 2005, 07:32 AM)
And yes ive been done for speeding a shitload of times (id even put up a healthy sized bet as to the fact that ive paid out the most to our friendly government in fines out of everyone here)

Luke.
[right][snapback]5278433[/snapback][/right]


I'll take you up on that bet if you like - my first speeding fine was written in both KM/h and mph.... in 1978. Candy cars ruled the roads, no speed cameras, drink driving laws were just being introduced......
Projector
Post #24

i just hate the flash at night can scare the f u c k out of you if you dont see the van.. bit dangrous

vh-holden
Post #25

QUOTE(Projector @ Aug 10 2005, 10:43 AM)
i just hate the flash at night  can scare the f u c k out of you if you dont see the van.. bit dangrous
[right][snapback]5278658[/snapback][/right]


i think that is why they only take them from behind

Projector
Post #26

still you never know if its a terriost firing a fucking rocket at you or something.. yeah

RxRaver
Post #27

Dunno how that is funny D16A8? Because Dan is worried he will get a ticket for something he didn't do? Or because someone is blatantly breaking the speed limit?

Seriously People Anybody having a whinge about anything to do with speed cameras needs a kick up the bum, If you do the crime you do the time or pay the fine.
Its like saying too many people are being caught murdering people so lets halve the size of the homicide squad.
XXX

.luke

^
Thanks for the back up Ellah, but you should know what I'm like, it's funny as fuck now! I'am a little tiny winy bit worried but not until the fine acctually get's here, So I encourage all to have a good laugh at that but when i ask got people to back me up if i get it, they cant dismiss all the people I've told, and the car should be next to me (behind me) in the photo. not that i reckon it'll happen but yeah. cant be too careful. I've only had 3 fines in my entire life so that should play some part as well.


Does anyone listen to John Laus?
he's just finished talking about all the flaws in the court system and with legislation and stuff with traffic laws. I'm not going to post what he said cause it's cheating the system big time, but It'll work with the Australian law system to get out of traffic offenses that have photo's as proof.
there's allot of interesting information out there.

fuck these novels I'm writting lately, sorry guys.

SLDEWYZ
Post #28

QUOTE(vh-holden @ Aug 10 2005, 10:48 AM)
i think that is why they only take them from behind
[right][snapback]5278665[/snapback][/right]


Dude, thats the navy not the police. mellow.gif

Projector
Post #29

ha ha ha ha funny funny funny is this true kaos about the navy? ha ha ha =P

RxRaver
Post #30

Yeah! What's a Golden Shower??? dunno.gif
I was told to ask my mate what it was, but i forgot, until now... unsure.gif

ROLLER
Post #31

Gross, it's when ya get pissed on and yeah Mick got up to some pretty funny shit out on them boats... I seen a video... bahahahaaaaaaa

D16A8
Post #32

I don’t know if i am allowed to mention this, but i will for the sake of thoughs people who don’t like to build the governments revenues. down south i knew of a product that you could bye overseas. its a spray can and you apply it to the licence plate. it dose not colour over the licence plate it just simply gives a reflective layer so when the camera flashes the plate reflects to bright to read. i think that’s how it works?????? any way available of Ebay.com if anyone plans on heading down south, i don’t think they work on our cameras here. biggrin.gif

RxRaver
Post #33

Apparently, HEAPS of hair spray on the plate, plate in the freezer for day, then back on the car.

Dont know if it works, haven't tried, but that's the word from a while back.

Catcha
Post #34

QUOTE(D16A8 @ Aug 10 2005, 04:34 PM)
I don’t know if i am allowed to mention this, but i will for the sake of thoughs people who don’t like to build the governments revenues. down south i knew of a product that you could bye overseas. its a spray can and you apply it to the licence plate. it dose not colour over the licence plate it just simply gives a reflective layer so when the camera flashes the plate reflects to bright to read. i think that’s how it works?????? any way available of Ebay.com if anyone plans on heading down south, i don’t think they work on our cameras here. biggrin.gif
[right][snapback]5279201[/snapback][/right]


Fast fours and rotaries did a test on these products, ages and ages ago, none of them worked.

Funny thing is that if you have a distintive car that stands out, even without a number plate they can still get ya if they persisted, which happend to a friend.

How about back then with that guy on the motorcycle doing wheelies infront of speed cameras ? he got caught eventually I think.
NCC
Post #35

Take numberplate off.

Hope this helps.

ps drive white camry.

Oswald

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